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Posted:
June 2, 2005 12:53 PM
Post #59097
Abdelouadoud El Omrani
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Moncef Chelli theory about the relativity of cultures

Author : Moncef Chelli, born in 1936 in Tunisia, Ph.D in Philosophy, he taught human sciences at preparatory classes at HEC Paris. He died in (?) He wrote:

-         La parole arabe  (Ed. Sindbab, 1980, la Bibilothèque arabe)

-         Le mythe de crystal ou le secret de la puissance de l’Occident (collection les empêcheurs de penser en rond, Institut Synthélabo, 1997)

-         L’évolution des idées dans la culture occidentale, (Ed. Ellipses, 1987)

-         Fiction, mythe et récit, une analyse de Borges (Ibid, 1988)

-         Coauthor of : Trois visions du temps (Ed. du Centurion, 1993)

 

Note of the editor: Malraux wanted to lean towards the Western Civilization to study it as an anthologist studies an ant’s hole. The New Philosophers also want to appreciate, as if from the exterior, the Western Culture; but the latter can’t become an object and what’s characterizes it is indeed a certain way of creating the objectivity. We’re closed inside a vicious circle..

This circle may be broken only by opposing to the culture-subject another culture-subject. The exteriority is then created by a confrontation where each one of the considered cultures refuses to be reduced to the categories of the other, and putting its own identity holds its own differences.

That’s the path of this book that differs from the classic ethnologist’s path.

It allows to throw a new glance over all the development of the philosophy and the science.

 

 

LA PAROLE ARABE,

A theory of relativity of the cultures (see the index as poorly translated by me at the end of this posting, and for the internal use in our linguistics and translators community: www.translatorscafe.com.)

 

Introduction (Part 1)

 

Moncef Chelli had, at the age of 8 or 9 years, a very special experience (rather common for bi-lingual people): one fine morning (exactly before the dawn) on holidays with his family, he was along a beach and entering the water, he heard almost simultaneously two different voices saying in two different languages (French and Arabic): “l’eau est froide!” (the water is cold) and in Arabic: “El mâ bâ â â ridd!”. He didn’t feel that the two voices were fusing into the space, but that each was hunting the space and all the surrounding environment to model it in its way; he was literally feeling double, because each voice was bringing him in a different universe. He felt that the separation between those two universes was not made of year-lights but by the discontinuity in its absolute state: the sea was double, the sand and the sky too and even the sun light that was not visible yet, were tainted by two different religiosities.

 

Moncef Chelli had a second experience at the age of 12, 13 or 14 he doesn’t remember with precision. He was listening to music. He just listened to the first half of a song of the Egyptian singer Abdel-Uahab (the whole song was on two discs), and wanted to listen to the second half. When he placed the second disc, instead of hearing Abdel-Uahab, it’s the music of Borodine that came out, since he inadvertently mixed the discs. So he felt that all the objects surrounding him changed sharply their aspects. The portraits of Vigny and George Sand hanging on the wall were not anymore foreign faces. From the first notes of the Prince Igor, their physiognomies were expressing themselves differently, they were in their own element.

But in the same time, the oriental carpet lying on the floor and that was one instant before, in its own element, was taking an exotic shape and was rather expressing the Thousand and One Nights as seen in Occident.

The most shaking in these experiences was the feeling that there was a break, a total rupture and a discontinuity in the passage from a universe to the other, something that looked like a death and a resurrection, but a resurrection with a different soul and a different personality.

 

Here are then the two experiences that will be the basics of Chelli’s works. He says that these experiences cannot be shown to the public as if they were objective phenomena like Florence springs that rise 10,33 meters or Michelson and Morlay rays that do not come back at the scheduled time by calculation logics. Nevertheless, he realized that his were not subjective experiences: he knew from there on, that the unity and coherence of the personality were linked to the element of a certain culture, and overall that this element, usually given as a universal value relying on a law, was in reality the fruit of the artifices of a language or an art.

 

 

I will try in the next post to introduce the philosophical project of Moncef Chelli (methodology) and to show that it’s not a simple linguistic approach (linguistics are for him a too easy tool, more technical than really going to the roots of the thinking and conceiving the world processes).

 

Nevertheless, who better than translators and linguistics can follow and check his ideas. At least in this first book.

In the second one, (le mythe de crystal) mathematicians and physicians will be beeped…

 

Salaam,

 

Ouadoud

 

 

 

La parole arabe:

 

Index:

 

Introduction

 

Carateristics of the Arabic language

 

Chapter 1: the absence of vocals

Chapter 2: The immanence of the meaning

            How the word fixes the meaning of the thing

            How the things provide to the words their signifying substance

Chapter 3: The “to be” is expressed only in the past

            Relativity of the essences

            Ambiguity of the being

            The problem of the copula

            Back to “Kâna”

Chapter 4: The Arabic words are not fixed by the usage, they’re constituted through derivation processes

            The facts

            The principle of the language

            Nature of the movement

            Back to the facts

            The Western mutation

 

The word (speech) in the Arabic group

 

Chapter 5: the word in the Arabic Pre-Islamic tribe

Chapter 6: the Islamic word (speech)

 

To conclude

 

 



[Edited by Abdelouadoud El Omrani on June 11, 2005 10:36 AM]

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Posted:
June 2, 2005 8:31 PM
Post #59111—in reply to #59097
Redha Lechheb
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RE: Theory of the relativity of cultures

Assalamou alaïka Ouadoud,

I would be glad if you could post the original texts of this writer (whom I didn't know before).

I'm wondering if all the true bilinguals feel the same, almost "schizophrenic" mood Chelli described above.
In my case, I warmly agree with him that these two languages are like oil and water : they may cohabit in the same bottle, but never mix.
Is this particular to some pairs ? a general rule ? you bilinguals can answer.

Ok, stop trolling and let's see what Ouadoud has prepared for our brains  .

Salaam


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Posted:
June 2, 2005 9:06 PM
Post #59112—in reply to #59097
Susan Connors
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RE: Theory of the relativity of cultures

Hi Ouadoud,

 

The exteriority is then created by a confrontation where each one of the considered cultures refuses to be reduced to the categories of the other, and putting its own identity holds its own differences.

 

Thanks for such an interesting post.  This reminds me of Said's concepts in Orientalism.  He argues that catagories (in his works Oriental and Occidental) are arbitrary and can't exist one without the other.  Do Chelli's ideas follow the same path? 

 

Susan

 

 

 

 


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Posted:
June 2, 2005 9:11 PM
Post #59113—in reply to #59111
Susan Connors
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RE: Theory of the relativity of cultures

Hi Redha,

Is this particular to some pairs ? a general rule ? you bilinguals can answer.

I wonder if you experience "different personalities" when you speak in two different languages.  I have had this experience.  In Italian I am a different person, and I think the language allows for different aspects of personality to come out and impedes others.

I've experienced too moving between language varieties.  I move between US and British English and also see the same thing happen.

You?

Susan


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Posted:
June 2, 2005 9:41 PM
Post #59118—in reply to #59097
Maxi Schwarz-Bastami
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RE: Theory of the relativity of cultures

BI-linguals, did someone say?  How about those of us who have a multitude of languages?  Each language exists within its own culture, and thus within its own world.  There are even some thoughts I would rather express in one language than another.  And isn't it strange when you are accustomed to speaking to a person in one language, and then because of circumstance must speak to them in a different language?

Maxi


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Posted:
June 2, 2005 9:45 PM
Post #59119—in reply to #59113
Gita Madhu
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RE: Theory of the relativity of cultures
Originally written by Susan Connors on June 2, 2005 9:11 PM

Hi Redha,

Is this particular to some pairs ? a general rule ? you bilinguals can answer.

I wonder if you experience "different personalities" when you speak in two different languages.  I have had this experience.  In Italian I am a different person, and I think the language allows for different aspects of personality to come out and impedes others.

I've experienced too moving between language varieties.  I move between US and British English and also see the same thing happen.

You?

Susan

 
How does the Word create us?
Golubkov seems to have something to say about this:  The Language Personality Theory:  An Integrative Approach to Personality on the Basis of its Language Phenomenology at http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/golubkov.html

For myself, yes. In English, I am what Bernard Shaw,Tolkien, and all the other authors have made me. In French, it is Cyrano de Bergerac, Antigone, Zazie and, of course, all the men and women from whom my French comes that have left their imprint on the French persona. In Hindi, Gita is moved by the many subtle archetypes of the culture, mythology and rituals. So it can be said that I think in English, feel in French and that my  conscience speaks in Sanskrit.

The neural pathways for each and every word must surely have motor implications which probably explains this impact of language use on  the psyche.

 

 



[Edited by Gita Madhu on June 2, 2005 9:47 PM]

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Posted:
June 3, 2005 12:36 AM
Post #59123—in reply to #59097
Abdelouadoud El Omrani
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International TC Circle

Dear all,

This seems very much like the start of an international multicultural circle, passionating

Redha, I have only the printed version of La parole arabe and le mythe de crystal in french. the English version not existing (according to my fonts) I wanted to share with the specialized audience we are in TC.

Susan, for this first book, Chelli's approach is through language analysis, for science and concepts, the second one is more specialized: that would suit then a paragone with Edward Said.

For bi-linguism, there's a substantive difference if the two languages are from completelty different background and ethymological roots like Indian/French or Arabic/English even though the two universes feeling is also present between two neo-latin languages french/italian or spanish: in this case, the "sound quality" as we will see later is important and that Maxi's post corroborates to a certain extent.

Gita,Golubkov approach is very different from Chelli and I put you an anteprima of next post: "....We will see for example how the presence or absence of the infinitive form or the copula in a linguistic system are facts of a capital importance, since it’s through them that are brought to the spirit (the mind) ideas like the action, the substance or the subject, that in their noumenal* realities are strictly  unthinkable.

*(FR: nouménal, from Kant’s noumène: the thing in itself as it exists independently from who may know it or feel it. In opposition to phenomena: the thing as it appears to the mind).

As you can see the approach is here through the independent reality, the nouména in opposition to phenomena.

 

P.S: For organizational matters, I'll try as much as I can, to post three (or 2) texts weekly, leaving thus space for discussions and feedback.

 

Salaam,

 

Ouadoud

 

 



[Edited by Abdelouadoud El Omrani on June 3, 2005 6:11 AM]

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Posted:
June 3, 2005 3:07 AM
Post #59129—in reply to #59113
J. K.
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RE: Theory of the relativity of cultures
Originally written by Susan Connors on June 3, 2005 3:11 AM

I wonder if you experience "different personalities" when you speak in two different languages.  ... In Italian I am a different person, and I think the language allows for different aspects of personality to come out and impedes others.

Ditto to you all.

Jacek


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Posted:
June 3, 2005 5:11 AM
Post #59136—in reply to #59097
Redha Lechheb
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RE: Theory of the relativity of cultures


I wonder if you experience "different personalities" when you speak in two different languages.  I have had this experience.  In Italian I am a different person, and I think the language allows for different aspects of personality to come out and impedes others.

I've experienced too moving between language varieties.  I move between US and British English and also see the same thing happen.

You?

This makes me feel UNCOMFORTABLE (though very useful for some jobs ). The more two languages are different in essence, the larger the gap is between their world representations.


For bi-linguism, there's a substantive difference if the two languages are from completelty different background and ethymological roots like Indian/French or Arabic/English even though the two universes feeling is also present between two neo-latin languages french/italian or spanish: in this case, the "sound quality" as we will see later is important and that Maxi's post corroborates to a certain extent.

I think the earlier you learn a language, the deeper it "models" a part of your personality. That's why I used the word "TRUE bilinguals", the ones who have grown in a bilingual atmosphere. "True" trilinguals seem to be very rare from what I read.

Headaches ->


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Posted:
June 3, 2005 9:58 AM
Post #59156—in reply to #59119
Susan Connors
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RE: Theory of the relativity of cultures

Hi Maxi,

And isn't it strange when you are accustomed to speaking to a person in one language, and then because of circumstance must speak to them in a different language?

Yes, I find it odd, out of place, uncomfortable.  Like wearing my shoes on the wrong feet.

Hi Gita,

The theortical information you posted is fascinating.  It's interesting that he suggests language has roots in emotion.  I wonder if there are emotions we can't feel (or can't express) because we lack the nuances to do so in a certain language.  There are so many things I can't express in English that I can in Italian:  there are no portals in the English language for these emotions to slip through. 

And this would suggest that it does alter our personality.

Hi Redha,

Funny you should mention that about trilinguales:  The State of MA has just changed the title of it ESL programs (English as a Second Language) to ELL (English Language Leaners) because English many not be the "second" language a child gets when entering school...children are arriving in kindergarten with more than one language before English.  (Inter-racial marriages is the main reason, for example:  kids speaking to parents in one language, different sets of grandparents in another.)


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