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In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.Martin Luther King jr
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Posted:
December 17, 2007 12:29 PM
Post #135200—in reply to #20344
Jacek K.
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Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
A comma war

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/opinion/16freedman.html?em&ex=1198040400&en=b932c5a2c478f0f4&ei=5070

LAST month, the Supreme Court agreed to consider District of Columbia v. Heller, which struck down Washington’s strict gun ordinance as a violation of the Second Amendment’s “right to keep and bear arms.” ...

The outcome of the case is difficult to handicap, mainly because so little is known about the justices’ views on the lethal device at the center of the controversy: the comma. That’s right, the “small crooked point,” as Richard Mulcaster described this punctuation upstart in 1582. The official version of the Second Amendment has three of the little blighters:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The decision invalidating the district’s gun ban, written by Judge Laurence H. Silberman of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, cites the second comma (the one after “state”) as proof that the Second Amendment does not merely protect the “collective” right of states to maintain their militias, but endows each citizen with an “individual” right to carry a gun, regardless of membership in the local militia.

How does a mere comma do that? According to the court, the second comma divides the amendment into two clauses: one “prefatory” and the other “operative.” On this reading, the bit about a well-regulated militia is just preliminary throat clearing; the framers don’t really get down to business until they start talking about “the right of the people ... shall not be infringed.”

The circuit court’s opinion is only the latest volley in a long-simmering comma war.

[...]


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Posted:
December 17, 2007 1:26 PM
Post #135204—in reply to #135200
Shiong-Fong Lew
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Mother tongue: English
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Location: Malaysia
 
RE: A comma war
Originally written by Jacek Krankowski on December 18, 2007 12:29 AM

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

In the context of a town sheriff and his cohort of armed cowboy volunteers?


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Posted:
June 26, 2008 6:10 PM
Post #149519—in reply to #135200
Nanna Mercer
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RE: A comma war
Originally written by Jacek Krankowski on December 17, 2007 6:29 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/opinion/16freedman.html?em&ex=1198040400&en=b932c5a2c478f0f4&ei=5070

LAST month, the Supreme Court agreed to consider District of Columbia v. Heller, which struck down Washington’s strict gun ordinance as a violation of the Second Amendment’s “right to keep and bear arms.” ...

The outcome of the case is difficult to handicap, mainly because so little is known about the justices’ views on the lethal device at the center of the controversy: the comma. That’s right, the “small crooked point,” as Richard Mulcaster described this punctuation upstart in 1582. The official version of the Second Amendment has three of the little blighters:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The decision invalidating the district’s gun ban, written by Judge Laurence H. Silberman of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, cites the second comma (the one after “state”) as proof that the Second Amendment does not merely protect the “collective” right of states to maintain their militias, but endows each citizen with an “individual” right to carry a gun, regardless of membership in the local militia.

How does a mere comma do that? According to the court, the second comma divides the amendment into two clauses: one “prefatory” and the other “operative.” On this reading, the bit about a well-regulated militia is just preliminary throat clearing; the framers don’t really get down to business until they start talking about “the right of the people ... shall not be infringed.”

The circuit court’s opinion is only the latest volley in a long-simmering comma war.

[...]

Sorry, but I can't cut a single word of the quoted post...

Justices Rule for Individual Gun Rights

"The 5-4 ruling was the first ever to so directly address the meaning of the Second Amendment’s ambiguous text…

The high court’s ruling was the first since 1939 to deal with the scope of the Second Amendment, and the first to so directly address the meaning of the amendment’s ambiguous, comma-laden text: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Not surprisingly, Justice Scalia and Justice Stevens differed on the clarity (or lack thereof) of the Second Amendment. “The amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second clause,” wrote Justice Scalia. “The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms.”

Not at all, Justice Stevens countered, asserting that the majority “stakes its holding on a strained and unpersuasive reading of the amendment’s text.” Justice Stevens read his dissent from the bench, an unmistakable signal that he disagreed deeply with the majority.

Indeed, it was clear from the conflicting opinions of Justices Scalia and Stevens that the case had generated emotional as well as intellectual sparks at the court.

Justice Scalia devoted page after page of his opinion to the various state constitutions and to the use of language in the 18th and 19th centuries to support his view that an individual right to bear arms is embodied in the Constitution. And Justice Scalia, who clearly takes pride in his writing as well as his reasoning, used adjectives like “frivolous” and “bizarre” to describe the other side’s arguments.

Not to be outdone, Justice Stevens called the majority’s interpretation of the Second Amendment “overwrought and novel” and said it “calls to mind the parable of the six blind men and the elephant,” in which each of the sightless men had a different conception of the animal.

“Each of them, of course, has fundamentally failed to grasp the nature of the creature,” Justice Stevens wrote. "


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Posted:
June 27, 2008 1:22 AM
Post #149523—in reply to #149519
Jacek K.
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Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: A comma war
Originally quoted by Nanna Mercer on June 27, 2008 12:10 AM

it “calls to mind the parable of the six blind men and the elephant,” in which each of the sightless men had a different conception of the animal.

“Each of them, of course, has fundamentally failed to grasp the nature of the creature,”



In various versions of the tale, a group of blind men (or men in the dark) touch an elephant to learn what it is like. Each one touches a different part, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then compare notes on what they felt, and learn they are in complete disagreement. The story is used to indicate that reality may be viewed differently depending upon one's perspective, suggesting that what seems an absolute truth may be relative due to the deceptive nature of half-truths: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Men_and_an_Elephant
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Posted:
June 27, 2008 2:42 AM
Post #149529—in reply to #149523
Jacek K.
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Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: A comma war
Originally written by Jacek Krankowski on June 27, 2008 7:22 AM

In various versions of the tale, a group of blind men (or men in the dark) touch an elephant to learn what it is like. Each one touches a different part, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then compare notes on what they felt, and learn they are in complete disagreement. The story is used to indicate that reality may be viewed differently depending upon one's perspective, suggesting that what seems an absolute truth may be relative due to the deceptive nature of half-truths: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Men_and_an_Elephant


This parable (not to be confused with "hyperbole," John) turned out to be useful in solving what seemed to be a contradiction:

Originally written by John Bunch on June 25, 2008 5:37 AM

They believe the following two things about it, simultaneously:

a. The Constitution .... is maleable and not set in stone. ...

b. The Constitution is sacrosanct, ...

Am I the only one who sees that here ?



While being sacrosanct when in force the Constutuion is at the same time maleable, as decades of its often contradictory interpretations have shown (see the Second Amendment). This way you can reconcile the elephant's tusk with its, sorry: his, tail. What's more, if you continue thinking outside the box, you arrive at the following alternative to being bogged down in endless comma wars:

Originally written by David Kallans on June 25, 2008 2:45 PM
I for one .... think there is nothing sacrosanct about the constitution and that it should, as Thomas Jefferson believed, be abolished and a new one re-created every generation. There is absolutely no reason to allow people who died two centuries ago to control the world we now live in.


Jacek


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