Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on October 31, 2009 5:26 PM When Constantinople was regained, Western Europe avidly studied the texts written by Greeks and I supposed continued by those in Constantinople.  However, many of the scholars they retained to  understand the Greek material were the Arabs.  So this isn't even the direct Arab contribution, but the Greek and Eastern contribution.

You mentioned that what people are taught nowadays is inadequate, Maxi, but then you deleted that post, I believe, so I cannot comment on it. Anyway, to continue with the topic you brought up, here is a review of

Samar Attar. The Vital Roots of European Enlightenment: Ibn Tufayl's Influence on Modern Western Thought. Lanham, MD: Rowman and Littlefield Publishers, inc., 2007, 174 pages. Hardcover $65.00.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Samar+Attar.+The+Vital+Roots+of+European+Enlightenment:+Ibn+Tufayl's...-a0185487493

Another interesting book for those interested in expanding their horizons and looking to connecting points rather than furiously cultivating old divides and waging new wars: http://www.amazon.com/Averroes-Enlightenment-Murad-Wahbah/dp/1573920843

Sorry Jacek, I was too quick and now I can't find where I tucked it.  How was history education where you grew up?  We looped into the discovery of America until high school.  Then we found out how many wives Henry VIII had.  I hated history.  Had no idea how fascinating it is.

Those books look promising - glad you found them for all of us.

Maxi

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 1, 2009 2:32 AM How was history education where you grew up?

Generally, the education model in the 1960s-1970s emphasized erudition, i.e., tons of facts from all over the place and time, names, titles, dates. Full-time memorizing. An excellent training for your memory, very good for future interpreters. Too bad there was no formal way of becoming one.

History specifically? Maxi, those were the years of communism. Need I be more specific about what kids were taught about the years 1917 (and earlier) on? Your more balanced view entirely depended on traditions of independence cultivated at your home, on your access to independent underground publications or dissident thinkers. Yes, everybody knew that the public life was one big lie, yet it's exactly like with the conditioning today. Many theoretically "know," for example, what advertising or other Nigerian scams are about, yet they will faithfully follow them up to the financial abyss if requested to do so.  

Originally written by Jacek K. on November 1, 2009 2:28 AM Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 1, 2009 2:32 AM How was history education where you grew up?   Generally, the education model in the 1960s-1970s emphasized erudition, i.e., tons of facts from all over the place and time, names, titles, dates. Full-time memorizing. An excellent training for your memory, very good for future interpreters. Too bad there was no formal way of becoming one. History specifically? Maxi, those were the years of communism. Need I be more specific about what kids were taught about the years 1917 (and earlier) on? Your more balanced view entirely depended on traditions of independence cultivated at your home, on your access to independent underground publications or dissident thinkers. Yes, everybody knew that the public life was one big lie, yet it's exactly like with the conditioning today. Many theoretically "know," for example, what advertising or other Nigerian scams are about, yet they will faithfully follow them up to the financial abyss if requested to do so.

I personally think education during communist times was excellent, except for history and literature, but it also depended on the teacher. The fact that some books were forbidden or not published rather, not accessible on the market made them even more attractive.  

Interesting, Jacek.  So while we had the "education must be fun" approach and never got past Columbus stepping out looking for India (for some reason) and stepping on the shores of America, you got tons of facts to memorize equally without rhyme or reason, and then the political ideology which was probably divorced from all that.  If I piece the whole thing together, then globally there is a bunch of us pontificating about things that we haven't a clue about.  I certainly feel that about my own background and have been busy rectifying it.

I've made some inroads.  I'm going via a textbook which begins in Mesopotamia before the Greeks, and ends somewhere close to now.  That puts you smack into the heart of modern conflicts (as per this thread) when you start.  The way I decided to study, however, was by looking up anything I didn't know about and I was soon immersed in documentaries, especially those brought out by the British with their dry wit. 

I've just left the period of the great schism of the popes, and the separate development of the Byzantine Empire and the rest of Western Europe, and then the eventual retrieval of whatever was preserved and developed in the former.  That brought me to the things that I have just related. 

It dawns on me that history is usually studied in terms of conflict: who conquered whom and what territory was won and lost.  But when you are studying it from a perspective of the transmission of culture, knowledge, and philosophies, it's a very interesting kind of study.  Essentially you are following the thread of ideas, knowledge and approaches - including the idea of Enlightenment, rational thought etc.

Trying to bring this back on topic - at that point you have the first Muslims, freshly idealistic, without any tradition of hatred since the Crusades had not happened yet, enter Constantinople, which had preserved and enhanced the Greek knowledge and meshed it with Christianity.  These Muslims get busy studying all of that and also transcribing the Greek writings into Arabic, and disseminating all that information throughout their territory.  Then the West, that has been in the backwaters and in fact were considered close to barbarians by those in Byzantium, catch up to all that.  And whom do they use to help them retrieve the old information?  The Arab scholars who have transcribed the Greek works, and studied them.  Among others, of course.

All that stuff about that part of the population having "missed" "Enlightenment does not wash at all.  Maybe there was a dark ages afterward.  In fact, if you go back far enough, it seems that this light-dark-light-dark thing is almost cyclical like the seasons.  It's not a steady stream of progress where we, nowadays, are the ultimate glorious result of something that started a few thousand years ago.

Maxi

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 1, 2009 9:14 AM you got tons of facts to memorize equally without rhyme or reason

Well, that depended on the teacher, how capable s/he was of synthesizing things. We were certainly not taught to disregard connections between events, their causes and effects. On the contrary.  What you say about the transmission of culture, knowledge, and philosophies was there, in addition to the undisputable fact that

history is usually studied in terms of conflict: who conquered whom and what territory was won and lost.

So I agree with Liliana's overall assessment above.

The role of ideology was to brainwash you to believe that now mankind has found a solution to all its troubles and it is the only solution acceptable simply because it is perfect and foolproof. QED. Hence "We have to lead, we must, we are responsible..." Ring a bell?

Originally written by John Bunch on October 31, 2009 10:05 PM Someone once said "The Germans will never forgive the Americans for liberating them". ... You might say that about all Europeans, too.

Yes, John, you are right as usual. In your own perspective only. All Eastern Europeans will, indeed, never forgive the Americans for liberating them in Yalta.

Originally written by Jacek K. on November 1, 2009 9:39 AM The role of ideology was to brainwash you to believe that now mankind has found a solution to all its troubles and it is the only solution acceptable ...

Seems to me that all political parties have the flavour of ideology. Many political parties, especially those in the "free" world, claim to be democratic or run along the notion of an almost absolute free will and ability to influence, via active participation in the political process, how best to live your life within the particular system. It isn't so!

Every morning while reading the news from various Danish sources I can only shake my head, for there is little (nothing?) one can do to influence the process of who gets what and why. 

You have hundreds of people and many organizations petitioning for AB, and with very good documentation showing why it is needed and the minister in charge rejects it out of hand. Later, when during yet another hearing, she is asked if she knows that XY official agency who receives tons of public money through taxes and heavy tariffs and who is supposed to actively promote AB, does not in fact do so. She doesn't know. Receiving the public money was conditional and the minister replies that she's surprised to discover that the reality is otherwise. DUH. No one bothered with the documentation.

The minister doesn't have a clue, she doesn't know and now a new law affecting millions of Danes is totally off-kilter for the next four years. No, she says, it cannot be changed now.

This is just one small instance of how it's almost useless to try to influence the political process.

Then there's brainwashing and mass hysteria. Last night the TV signals changed from analogue to digital. For the last six months, the hysteria has been almost total. The idea was that the future had arrived, etc. blah - blah - blah and to be part of the future you must purchase a new digital TV. Many people did just that - brainwashed into supporting the ailing economy - and all stores selling electronic gear have been sending out adverts that unless you buy or rent of subscribe or --- your TV signal would completely disappear last night. The state, the cable giants and the TV stores had the only viable solution to this terrible personal dilemma

I refused to join the unwashed and the brainwashed and guess what happened to my old TV?

Nanna, on a Sunday morning rant...