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Последнее сообщение November 26, 2009 4:12 AM

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Seule la paresse fatigue le cerveau.Louis Pauwels (1920-1997)
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« Тема »
Создано:
June 23, 2009 1:38 AM
Сообщение 178917
John Bunch
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На форумах с: February 1, 2008
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Situation in Iran
I am more than a bit surprised not to find a thread on this yet here. So here goes... The situation in Iran. Very volatile. Days of unrest. 19 protesters killed so far, including Neda, "The Lioness of Iran", as she is being called. She was 27 years old and was hit by a stray bullet. For more on Neda: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neda_Soltani.

I have several questions, and I admit that I don't have the answer to any of them:

- What does this mean ?
- Will the military get involved ?
- Is there a larger agenda here ?
- What do the mullahs think ?
- Does the "Twitter revolution" portend such uprisings for other nations ?

[Отредактировано John Bunch, June 23, 2009 1:48 AM]

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Создано:
June 23, 2009 4:08 AM
Сообщение 178925 — ответ на №178917
Salmaan Kureemun
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На форумах с: September 18, 2006
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RE: Situation in Iran

I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of  "Lionesses of Palestine" or "Lionesses of Iraq" or "Lionesses of Afghanistan" have been murdered and raped by the other evil forces, apart from the evil acts perpetrated by the Iranian government. And you don't hear the same crowd who are lamenting the death of one person, so that they could justify an invasion, as they did in Iraq and Afghanistan, and kill millions in covert military false flag car bombings blamed on other groups as well as more blatant bombing campaigns using fighter jets and cruise missiles, you don't hear the same crowd lamenting about the murdered wives and daughters of Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan, or Vietnam, Korea and Latin America. These are justified deaths and destruction, no matter what. What about the "Lion Cubs of Palestine" whom the IDF evil forces mercilessly kill routinely.. When viewed in context and perspective, the evil of the anglo-american New World Order is definitely more heinous, dangerous, decimating, gruesome, greedy, merciless and mercantilist than any other group that are currently fighting for domination.

Paul Craigs Robert, Bob Chapman, William Engdahl, Ron Paul, Alex Jones, are some of the names you want to find out about, if you're interested in knowing the side of the story that the BBCs and the CNNs certainly do not want you to hear. And by the way, the BBC has been caught, once again, manipulating photos taken in Iran in order to carry out their propaganda. It has become an established tradition over there at the BBC, from the 9-11 attacks coverage to every other engineered conflict.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/

http://www.infowars.com/

http://www.theinternationalforecaster.com/

 

 



[Отредактировано Salmaan Kureemun, June 23, 2009 4:14 AM]

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Создано:
June 23, 2009 10:45 AM
Сообщение 178977 — ответ на №178925
John Bunch
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RE: Situation in Iran
Are you speaking of the taliban ? 3 million young women get to go to school now in Afghanistan, because NATO and the US liberated Afghanistan. The taliban throw acid into the faces of girls whose "crime" is to try to walk 5 miles to a school to learn. Maybe you need to read up on what "evil" means.

Regarding the IDF, they are under attack constantly, so their situation of self-defense within a situation of low-level, constant terrorist war against them is also totally different than what is happening in Iran.

Of course, anyone killed in any war or non-war is a terrible thing, but to just mix up every moral category and say that everything is the same, just helps the people who truly are "evil", as you put it.

[Отредактировано John Bunch, June 23, 2009 10:48 AM]

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Создано:
June 23, 2009 1:05 PM
Сообщение 178982 — ответ на №178977
David Kallans
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RE: Situation in Iran

I too was surprised that no thread had opened up yet on this.  As a long-time student of Iran I am following the situation with great interest.  It there are any visitors to this site from Iran, your insights would be most welcome.  The coverage in the US and the policians here are in general rather biased and reflect much ignorance about Iranian history and culture, but that of course is nothing new.


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Создано:
June 23, 2009 3:15 PM
Сообщение 178990 — ответ на №178982
John Bunch
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RE: Situation in Iran
I agree. One really interesting voice on this has been Stratfor's George Friedman. He has basically argued that the majority of Iranians support Amajinedad, and reject western norms and life, and "want to live the way their grandparents did", and that we in the West do not understand that. He also pointed out that the media goes (only) to Teheran and only speaks to people who can speak English, thus the people who they say "represent" Iran, really don't, and you would have to go into the countryside to get the real view. (I don't necessarily agree with him, but it is interesting !).

Here is his article:
http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2009/06/western_misconception_iran_rea.html

BTW, a couple of additional points:

- I wrote that Neda was killed by a "stray bullet". But I am now unsure. She was hit while those around her were not (I saw the video and it is chilling and very sad and frightening what a bullet can do; a very upsetting crime). They are now saying she might have been hit at close range by a hangun, by a militiaman, and then my question was, was she targeted because she was a woman, etc.

- Regarding equating Neda dying with what other nations (Israel, the U.S.) have done, well, perhaps there might be some parallels in some extreme situations (you can go back in my posts if you wanted to and read my very strong condemnations against the U.S. company Blackwater, in Iraq, who did basically the same kinds of things). But let's just say that this same thing happened to a Palestinian woman protesting against Israel (it could happen). I seriously doubt that someone would post that, and then another poster would write that that is also what Hamas, Hezbollah, and Al Quida have also done. i.e. what I am criticizing is not true moral equivalency (in which everyone is equally bad and thus no one is different from the others), but subjective and self-serving moral equivalency, in which such moral statements are made, but at the end of the day, as Orwell would say, "all are equal(ly bad), but some are more equal(ly) bad than others... [and those are: Israel and the U.S.]).


[Отредактировано John Bunch, June 23, 2009 3:27 PM]

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Создано:
June 23, 2009 3:29 PM
Сообщение 178991 — ответ на №178990
John Bunch
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RE: Situation in Iran
More on Neda (her name in Farsi evidently means "the message", which I think is very appropriate):

"According to some Farsilanguage websites, Neda was killed by the Islamic Basij militia - the voluntary arm of the elite Revolutionary Guard - when attending Saturday's mass protest along with her teacher and some classmates.

The websites claim she was talking on a mobile phone when targeted by two men in plain clothes on a motorcycle."

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Создано:
June 23, 2009 4:05 PM
Сообщение 178993 — ответ на №178990
Shiong-Fong Lew
Родной язык: English
На форумах с: March 28, 2004
Местонахождение: Malaysia
 
RE: Situation in Iran

Originally written by John Bunch on June 24, 2009 4:15 AM I agree. One really interesting voice on this has been Stratfor's George Friedman. He has basically argued that the majority of Iranians support Amajinedad, and reject western norms and life, and "want to live the way their grandparents did", and that we in the West do not understand that. 

 

The poll by Terror Free Tomorrow (http://www.terrorfreetomorrow.org/template.php?section=IN), an organization funded by Rockefella, done 3 weeks before the election and said to be the most comprehensive (albeit by a foreign organization) also pointed to the incumbent Ahmadinejad's victory. The poll threw up some interesting points (http://www.terrorfreetomorrow.org/upimagestft/CNN%20Commentary%20Iran%20Poll%200609.pdf and http://www.terrorfreetomorrow.org/upimagestft/Post%20Election%20CNN%20BBC%20WP%20Commentary%20Iran.pdf).

Reported by CNN:

Surveyed on a wide range of issues, Iranians overwhelmingly favor better relations with the United States and greater democracy for Iran.
The poll shows that the Iranian public remains far removed from the stereotypes of apocalyptic fanatics commonly asserted in some circles in the United States. The survey suggests that Iranians instead are a people with self-confidence and hope in a more democratic future.

More than 86 percent of those who told us they support Ahmadinejad also choose free elections and a free press as their most important priorities for their leaders.

Yet the government's actions since the election may have changed the debate in Iran from being about candidates to being about democracy.

 

Reported by BBC:

An independent poll three weeks ago had Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ahead of his closest rival by a similar 2:1 ratio.
The research was conducted by US-based polling organisations Terror Free Tomorrow, the New America Foundation and KA Europe SPRL.

 

So, what changed in between the polls and the election that led the opposition to believe that there was fraud and election fixing? Of course the authorities does not owe the world an explanation as elections are basically an internal affiar of the state. But the world would be watching on how the authorities respond to the allegations and demonstrate transparency in a convincing way. Whatever happens, I suppose we would see a more moderate leadership in order to take into account the changed political landscape.

 

 


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Создано:
June 23, 2009 4:22 PM
Сообщение 178994 — ответ на №178993
John Bunch
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RE: Situation in Iran
And the lesson for the West is that Muslims want democracy. There is a lot of "junk" said in the West about Islam not being compatible with democracy, but I think that the events in Iran show that Muslims want democracy, just like people all over the world.

Another point: the 1979 Iranian Revolution was run by mostly men with beards, and old men. This revolution is being run mainly by women. I usually don't write much about women's liberation and the empowerment of women, but this aspect is undeniable and is very, very striking.

[Отредактировано John Bunch, June 23, 2009 4:29 PM]

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Создано:
June 23, 2009 7:28 PM
Сообщение 179002 — ответ на №178994
John Bunch
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На форумах с: February 1, 2008
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RE: Situation in Iran
This situation is getting very interesting. Now Shiite clerics have joined the protests (I can't see them being fired on !). I had an International Relations professor back in college who said, in situations like this, watch the military. If the military turns against Amajinedad, he is done. Seems obvious, but there are so many "players", but the one that really counts is the military.


[Отредактировано John Bunch, June 23, 2009 7:29 PM]

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Создано:
June 24, 2009 6:24 AM
Сообщение 179026 — ответ на №179002
Jacek K.
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На форумах с: February 18, 2003
Местонахождение: Poland
 
RE: Situation in Iran

Iran blamed the deaths on “armed terrorists". I wonder what made those terrorists immune from foreign bombings? In other words, what is the difference between the Iranian authoritarian regime whom we just let deal with the protesters and, say, Saddam Hussein whom it was necessary to topple by invading his country?


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