Expert Родной язык: English Сообщений: 1807 На форумах с: February 1, 2008 Местонахождение: United States
RE: America, America...
You actually want to portray U.S. health care as a tale of unrelenting woe, probably to justify a large, intrusive statist solution (but studies show that 87 % of Americans are happy with the health care they get). This myth of "horrible health care" might make socialists in Europe feel good, but it is a straw man argument.
Ron Paul talks about working as a doctor in an emergency room back in the late 1950s, which was run by a church. He said that he made $ 3, and "everyone got care". It was only when the government began to get into health care in 1965 that costs exploded and - ironically - the poor can no longer all get care.
Americans are now more afraid of national debt than lack of health care, and that is why "ObamaCare" is failing. I have pointed out on this site before that Obama's plan would just add more debt (it would "just" cost "$ 1 trillion", would ration care, and would basically destroy innovation and investment in medicine.
And try not to fool yourself: if the "capitalist" medical system in the U.S. goes down, everyone all over the world would "pay" for it in less medicines, less choices, and higher costs. (already, 30,000 Canadians each year cross the U.S. border to get care that they can't get on time in Canada. Where would they go, for instance ? ).
Родной язык: Polish На форумах с: February 18, 2003 Местонахождение: Poland
RE: America, America...
Originally written by John Bunch on August 11, 2009 2:40 AM
studies show that 87 % of Americans are happy with the health care they get
The remaining 13% is probably the 40 million of uninsured we have been hearing about for years. That's 40 million of people in the United States, most of them Americans. Now listen to this mob:
“Tyranny! Tyranny! Tyranny!” shouted protesters in Tampa, Florida. “Forty million illegals!” (Even though the 11 million undocumented immigrants in the U.S. are specifically excluded from the health-care plan.) (http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/article1025529.ece via Harper's Weekly Review)
In other words, the protesting mob probably mistook all the US uninsured, i.e., 40 million, most of them American residents, for "illegals." I see this as an interesting Freudian slip. It's as if those who are happy with the status quo were shouting: Get rid of those 40 million uninisured because they are all illegal people, overlooking the fact that only 1/4 of them are "illegal aliens".
Just a few days ago, the no longer governor went a bit further:
Here’s what Palin said on her Facebook page Friday, in her first online comments since quitting as Alaska governor.
“The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s ‘death panel’ so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their ‘level of productivity in society’ whether they are worthy of health care.”
For a democracy, which depends on an informed citizenry to balance a permanent lobbying class, this is poison. And it’s one reason why town hall forums on health care, which should be sharp debates about something that affects all of us, have turned into town mauls. ...
The lies and shouts have had the effect that all crank speech has on free speech — stifling any real exchange. ...
Expert Родной язык: English Сообщений: 1807 На форумах с: February 1, 2008 Местонахождение: United States
RE: America, America...
Jacek, about 20 % of the 47 million uninsured are illegal aliens. The rest are mostly younger people who chose (yes, chose) not to buy insurance. I have met some of them. Also, 50 % of the "uninsured" make over $ 50,000 per year. Many of those who are poor qualify for already-exisiting programs, but just have not signed up.
Senator Tom Coburn, one of only 2 doctors in the Senate, made the following points in a recent essay:
1. Why won't Congress enroll in ObamaCare ? Coburn asked 11 committee members on a committee in the Senate - all Democrats - how many would vote for a provision that states that federal employees - i.e., Congressmen and Senators, would also be covered by ObamaCare. Only 2 said they would support that !! This alone shows what an utter SHAM this whole thing is. They are going to vote in "universal" care for us, but there is a provision that allows them to opt themselves and their families out !! They thus know that this will be a "clunker".
2. If it will save money, why will it cost $ 1 trillion ?? If America "already pays more than any other country" for health care, why does Obama think that borrowing $ 1 trillion to pay even more for health care, is a good idea ?
3. Why the rush ? The bill in Congress is 1,000 pages long, and they are trying to rush it through. If it were a good bill, they would know it would win on its merits. But they know it is not a good bill, so they are trying to rush it through, without anyone reading it.
The true goal is NOT about health care, it is about POWER: expanding the federal government's power and getting as many people dependent on the Democratic party as possible. That is their true goal.
In the meantime, they use "smoke and mirrors" (the "cash for clunkers program", and "mobs" at town halls, to divert our attention).
[Отредактировано John Bunch, August 11, 2009 5:00 PM]
Expert Родной язык: English Сообщений: 1807 На форумах с: February 1, 2008 Местонахождение: United States
RE: America, America...
BTW, I am 100% convinced that there are such "death panels", for instance, in Britain. I am not necessarily a fan of Sarah Palin, but I do think she is right about this.
In addition, some information on the real health care situation in the U.S., as compared to other countries:
"In the US a coronary patient is four times as likely to receive surgical treatment as in Britain. In the US only 5% of Americans are made to wait more than four months for surgery. In Canada 27% wait four months or more and in Britain 36% wait four months or more. While the base rate of coronary disease in the US is higher than in other countries because of diet and lifestyle, the rate of survival for those diagnosed with coronary problems is much higher than in other countries because patients get the best and most appropriate treatment more quickly.
The same pattern holds true with cancer. Overall Britons and Europeans in general die at a higher rate from all forms of cancer than US citizens and the difference is dramatic in cases where early detection and treatment are important. For example, women with breast cancer in Britain have a 46% death rate as opposed to 25% in the US. Men with prostate cancer in Britain have a 57% mortality rate while in the US only 19% die and the death rate is declining rapidly because of early detection. It's the same with colon cancer. In Europe as a whole there is only a 8% survival rate, in Britain there's a 40% survival rate and in the US there's a 60% survival rate. With cancer of the esophagus only 7% survive while in the US 12% survive, although it's still one of the most deadly forms of cancer. Both long- and short-term recovery and survival rates for all forms of cancer are also significantly higher for US patients. Rationed care has limited diagnostic facilities like MRI machines and has created long wait times for specialist doctors. In fact, 40% of cancer patients in Britain never get to see a cancer specialist at all, and the National Health bureaucrats have denied basic tests like pap smears and ruled out powerful chemotherapy medicines as too expensive, all of which has cost lives. With diseases like cancer where early detection and treatment are vital, resource rationing means a lot more dead patients." - Dave Nalle
Expert Родной язык: English Сообщений: 1807 На форумах с: February 1, 2008 Местонахождение: United States
RE: America, America...
Nanna, you wrote, regarding the town halls:
"The lies and shouts have had the effect that all crank speech has on free speech — stifling any real exchange. ..." [that may very well be true, although I doubt that "all real exchange" has been stifled...], however:
My comments:
a. Such shouting down of opponents, and turbulent disruption of debate has been a hallmark of left-wing debate tactics since at least 1968, and is a tactic extremely often used by liberals (particularly on college campuses and on the street). Now, when it is for once turned against liberals , they are now complaining of it. Very, very hypocritical. Seems that the can't take what they regularly dish out.
b. The people doing the shouting are conservative Democrats, not Republicans, mostly.
[Отредактировано John Bunch, August 11, 2009 9:37 PM]
Родной язык: Polish На форумах с: February 18, 2003 Местонахождение: Poland
RE: America, America...
Originally written by John Bunch on August 11, 2009 10:59 PM
They are going to vote in "universal" care for us, but there is a provision that allows them to opt themselves and their families out !!
John,
I keep thinking out loud. I have no way of knowing whether all details of ObamaCare are good or bad and how that system would work in practice. In my days, federal employees had to belong to a federal pension system which later was phased out and merged with the Social Security. So modifications are possible along the way. We are talking about a minimum of civilizational decency. I for one never use the universal healthcare system in Poland because I cannot afford the waste of time. I only use the private one and pray not to have to go to the hospital which is when I would have to use the state system. The latter is used, though, but the overwhelming majority of population who cannot afford the private system. Both system should be there for people to freely choose between.
Expert Родной язык: English Сообщений: 1807 На форумах с: February 1, 2008 Местонахождение: United States
RE: America, America...
I don't know either, but I think that the burden of proof is on Obama to show how the government taking over 15 % of our economy would be better than what we have now, more efficient, less wasteful, etc. In my view, Obama has failed miserably in showing me why I should support it. Meanwhile, the latest controversy is the alleged "fascist" symbols, being used by Obama. You decide...
Expert Родные языки: Polish, English Сообщений: 2907 На форумах с: September 13, 2008 Местонахождение: United States
RE: America, America...
Originally written by Jacek K. on August 12, 2009 1:23 AM
The latter is used, though, but the overwhelming majority of population who cannot afford the private system. Both system should be there for people to freely choose between.
Yes, I agree, although I absolutely adoid doctors: medicine people make more sense to me.
Родной язык: Polish На форумах с: February 18, 2003 Местонахождение: Poland
RE: America, America...
Originally written by John Bunch on August 12, 2009 8:10 AM
...the government taking over 15 % of our economy
Here is how that sector works:
A patient in Illinois was charged $12,712 for cataract surgery. Medicare pays $675 for the same procedure. In California, a patient was charged $20,120 for a knee operation that Medicare pays $584 for. And a New Jersey patient was charged $72,000 for a spinal fusion procedure that Medicare covers for $1,629.
The charges are among a long list of high fees cited in a survey released online Tuesday by America's Health Insurance Plans, which represents 1,300 health insurance companies. The group said it had used Medicare payments for comparison because Medicare was so familiar and payments are, on average, about 80 percent of what private insurers pay.
The survey, insurers and some economists say, shows the sort of irrational pricing of medical care that is an integral part of the nation's health care problems and that is largely being ignored, some say, in the current debate. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/health/policy/12insure.html?_r=1&hp
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