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Last Activity November 20, 2009 3:18 PM

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La sorte de mensonge la plus répandue est celle que l'on murmure à soi-même.Nietzsche, philosophe
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Posted:
November 21, 2008 12:28 PM
Post #162608—in reply to #162605
David Kallans
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RE: Such jobs should not be permitted on TC
Thor, I may have misunderstood your posting, and apologize if I came off as gruff.  A categorical ban on offers would probably be fine, as there would be no price-fixing.
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Posted:
November 21, 2008 12:33 PM
Post #162609—in reply to #162604
David Kallans
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RE: Such jobs should not be permitted on TC
Originally written by Laurent J. Krauland on November 21, 2008 12:10 PM
Originally written by David Kallans on November 21, 2008 5:56 PM


Well people want to do all sorts of things that are unlawful.  Translators certainly can, and do, form organizations designed to promote their interests, but agreeing to fix prices cannot be one of their tactics.


I am sorry - but I don't see what can possibly be regarded as illegal when you create e.g. a groupment with commercial aims (in this case: producing and selling translations) having the status of a registered legal person and to say: "Groupment XYZ makes/sells translations for such prices".

I may have misunderstood you, David, but this will not block translators who are not members of the groupment to make/sell translations at lower prices - and therefore fixing prices as described above is perfectly legal.

Laurent K.


Well it depends what Groupment XYZ is.  If it is a single independent company, it can set its prices at any level it wishes.  I had thought that perhaps you meant that XYZ was an association of two or more independent companies.  Two or more independent companies can not agree to set prices.  The fact that the group does not include all members of the industry is not important.  For example, if McDonalds and Burger King agreed to sell hamburgers at the same price, this would be unlawful price fixing, even though Wendy's was not party to that agreement.
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Posted:
November 21, 2008 12:38 PM
Post #162610—in reply to #162509
Sofiene Addala
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RE: Such jobs should not be permitted on TC

Maxi,

I don't think we have a role of police of the translation profession. I think our role should simply be limited to warning people not to accept such low rate jobs and not to decide that, at a certain price, a job is good enough to be posted to the community.

 

 

Dear colleagues,

Thank to all for your input and just to be back to the subject. I don't think that we are trying to play the role of the police here. We are saying that we are not allowing the industry to be spoiled by people who care only about your rate and not about the quality.

What I first appreciated in TC was that it was a professional website, run by people who are really professional. You can tell when you notice that no linguist can offer less than 0.05$ in his profile and no job poster can enter into the system a rate less than 0.05$.

The terms of use of TC already talked about the matter, so we are not setting a new rule and we are not even discussing the importance of the matter. Technically, it is possible to check if a poster is breaking the rules of the site and the ad can be banned. As posts are deleted if they contain spams they also should be deleted if they break other rules such as the lowest rate.

I don't know for you colleagues, but when a client offers me a rate of $0.03 all what I can understand, is that this client is not interested in the quality and he would assign the job to any person that will deliver a text written in the destination language (no matter was the quality). I ignore him/her for sure. This is what I can initially do, but I also express and ask him to not return to me with any similar offers. We certainly can do more than ignoring. The point from this thread is to express some "anger" and a request to all such posters to stop "insulting" us.

 

Sofiene Addala

(Ed is actually the name of the job poster

 


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Posted:
November 21, 2008 12:38 PM
Post #162611—in reply to #162600
Jacek K.
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RE: Such jobs should not be permitted on TC

More related threads:

Tsk Tsk Tsk 10.00 an hour

RE: Improving Job Posters' Obligatory Information

Inflation goes up, up, up and translation prices go down, down, down

Professional associations vs. antitrust

Also Post #124009


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Posted:
November 21, 2008 12:42 PM
Post #162612—in reply to #162603
Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov
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RE: Such jobs should not be permitted on TC

Originally written by Laurent Chiacchierini on November 21, 2008 12:09 PM
I personally do not know any plumber who works through the Internet to repair leaks on your pipework,

 

Do you think, Laurent, the translators' work is easier because it is done over the internet?  I am not for fixed prices, this was just a possibility, not even  a very serious one. I just wish people had more self-esteem and did not work for $0.03/word, people who have sometimes years of education  working for fast food restaurant seasonal employees' rates. 



[Edited by Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov on November 21, 2008 1:23 PM]

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Posted:
November 21, 2008 12:43 PM
Post #162613—in reply to #162604
Thor Kottelin
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Location: Finland
 
RE: Such jobs should not be permitted on TC

Originally written by Laurent J. Krauland on November 21, 2008 6:10 PM
I don't see what can possibly be regarded as illegal when you create e.g. a groupment with commercial aims (in this case: producing and selling translations) having the status of a registered legal person and to say: "Groupment XYZ makes/sells translations for such prices".
I may have misunderstood you, David, but this will not block translators who are not members of the groupment to make/sell translations at lower prices - and therefore fixing prices as described above is perfectly legal.
 

At least from a European viewpoint, the situation probably is not quite that simple.

One of the paramount anti-trust rules, Article 81 of the EC Treaty, basically prohibits, among others, "all agreements between undertakings, decisions by associations of undertakings and concerted practices which may affect trade between Member States and -- in particular those which -- directly or indirectly fix purchase or selling prices --".

This ban applies even if the entire market does not participate in such an agreement. A few exceptiions are listed in paragraph 3 though.

(This is not legal advice, just my less-than-well-informed understanding.)



[Edited by Thor Kottelin on November 21, 2008 12:58 PM]

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Posted:
November 21, 2008 12:51 PM
Post #162617—in reply to #162610
David Kallans
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RE: Such jobs should not be permitted on TC
Originally written by Sofiene Addala

I don't know for you colleagues, but when a client offers me a rate of $0.03 all what I can understand, is that this client is not interested in the quality and he would assign the job to any person that will deliver a text written in the destination language (no matter was the quality). I ignore him/her for sure. This is what I can initially do, but I also express and ask him to not return to me with any similar offers. We certainly can do more than ignoring. The point from this thread is to express some "anger" and a request to all such posters to stop "insulting" us.



Ignoring the offers is the most appropriate thing to do.  You need not express your anger, nor is it particularly professional to do so, in my opinion.  If you want to ask the company to refrain from sending you offers in the future that would also be appropriate, but the message should be polite and respectful, I would suggest.

Your statements about quality miss a major point.  The customer is the judge of quality.  Perhaps all he wants is a bicycle, but you're trying to sell him a Mercedes Benz.  It's inappropriate for you to say that he doesn't care about "quality" simply because he doesn't want the most expensive option on the market.  He may be perfectly content with something less costly.  For him to spend anymore is wasteful and economically inefficient.  You need not cater to what he is looking for, but you have no right to be disdainful of him either.

Quality is defined as conformity with customer requirements.


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Posted:
November 21, 2008 12:53 PM
Post #162618—in reply to #162608
Thor Kottelin
Mother tongue: Finnish
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Location: Finland
 
RE: Such jobs should not be permitted on TC

Originally written by David Kallans on November 21, 2008 6:28 PM
Thor, I may have misunderstood your posting, and apologize if I came off as gruff.  A categorical ban on offers would probably be fine, as there would be no price-fixing.

Thank you. No hard feelings. I could have explained myself more clearly, considering how active this thread has been today.


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Posted:
November 21, 2008 12:54 PM
Post #162619—in reply to #162612
Laurent Chiacchierini
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RE: Such jobs should not be permitted on TC
Originally written by Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov on November 21, 2008 6:42 PM

Originally written by Laurent Chiacchierini on November 21, 2008 12:09 PM

I personally do not know any plumber who works through the Internet to repair leaks on your pipework,

 

Do you think, Laurent, the translators' work is easier because it is done over the internet?



That's not what I meant.

I mean that it's easier to hire translators anywhere in the world, through the Internet, and have them deliver their work this way, than it is for many other professionals (such as plumbers, dentists, etc. who are often cited here in comparison). This does not entail that local translators do not have something more to offer in order to justify higher rates...

So let's only compare what can be compared.

Laurent C.

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Posted:
November 21, 2008 12:58 PM
Post #162620—in reply to #162612
David Kallans
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RE: Such jobs should not be permitted on TC
Originally written by Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov

I just wish people had more self-esteem and did not work for $0.3/word, people who have sometimes years of education  working for fast food restaurant seasonal employees' rates. 



Why are you projecting your concept of self esteem on to other people?  You have no obligation to accept work that offends your self esteem, but you also have no right to dictate to others, who often live in very different economies where wages are quite different, what their self esteem should be.  This is a 21st century type of intellectual imperialism.
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