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Assert your right to make a few mistakes. If people can't accept your imperfections, that's their fault.Dr. David M. Burns
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Создано:
July 2, 2009 2:34 PM
Сообщение 179469 — ответ на №179467
John Bunch
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RE: Freedom of speech, under attack in Canada
Scott, you are right. And one of the absolute favorite things of the Left is the "Banned Books" list that comes out every year. The Left thereby views itself as the champion of free speech and how the Right is "censoring". And then they turn around and basically ban speech that they find offensive. And they must have no self-insight to not see the hypocrisy there.

I actually disagree with Steyn on many issues, but he is interesting and thought-provoking. I don't think that Islam is as much of a threat as he states in his book, but I want to be able to have that discussion (rather than it being driven "underground"). If we did things the "Canadian Way", we would not have any debates on these issues anymore.

Just to be fair, Canada has moderated this a bit and writers are more or less free to write, but there are still limits. The point is that the Human Rights Commissions were originally set up for one purpose, but are now being abused by the Left and by various Muslim groups, to silence any critical stance about Islam. The HR courts might be acceptable (I doubt it, though) if they were impartial and subject to checks and balances, but that appears not to be the case in Canada.

BTW, I am just wondering if any Candians saw "Borat". If so, do the Kazachstanis have the right to sue Sacha Baron Cohen before the Human Rights Commission ? Does every group parodied in that movie have such a right, because he made fun of them and subjected them to ridicule ?

And what about the "Brüno" movie ? Should it be banned in Canada ?


[Отредактировано John Bunch, July 2, 2009 2:38 PM]

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Создано:
July 2, 2009 2:37 PM
Сообщение 179471 — ответ на №179467
Maxi Schwarz-Bastami
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На форумах с: September 26, 2003
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RE: Freedom of speech, under attack in Canada

BTW, Canada did back down a bit from this, and no one went to jail, but this is, as liberals put it, "chilling".

1.  There is no jail term for an investigation, which is not a trial.
2.  "Canada" did not do anything - A request by one of its citizens to investigate a concern was honoured.
3.  Canadian Liberals have not expressed any particular emotion as far as I know, and certain not anything as dire as "chill".

The only thing that happened is that a citizen expressed a concern which was looked into.

Maxi


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Создано:
July 2, 2009 2:38 PM
Сообщение 179472 — ответ на №179471
John Bunch
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RE: Freedom of speech, under attack in Canada
The HR courts can issue injunctions, forcing people not to print anything more on that topic. To many journalists, that is worse than prison. The HR courts have a lot more power than you say, and can stop publications and also impose fines. You are whitewashing it. If it was just about "asking questions", the people being summoned just would choose not to appear. I think that you can tell by the Ezra Lavant video, that he was not voluntarily in that room, and his entire demeanor was of someone summoned and coerced to be there.

I do agree that many Canadians, including liberals, are against this, and I commend them.

BTW, a good summary of this issue, and of Ezra Lavant's new book about it:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/667smbfm.asp

I always knew that Canadians are nice people, but it now appears that they will be forced to be nice, at all times, and to everyone:
http://www.reason.com/news/show/124925.html


[Отредактировано John Bunch, July 2, 2009 3:21 PM]

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Создано:
July 2, 2009 3:27 PM
Сообщение 179475 — ответ на №147713
Maxi Schwarz-Bastami
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RE: Freedom of speech, under attack in Canada

A shallow article that has changed the original printed facts.  The magazine articles are now cartoons.  The HRC is turned into a poor person's rental watchdog.  Give me a break.

Maxi



[Отредактировано Jacek K., July 2, 2009 5:58 PM]

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Создано:
July 2, 2009 5:33 PM
Сообщение 179483 — ответ на №179475
John Bunch
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RE: Freedom of speech, under attack in Canada

Some coments on the HRC, from inside and outside Canada (this is from Wikipedia, and I will leave it up to the readers if this is deemed 'deep' enough to believe). Note: this also might be the first time that I have ever agreed with something said by Noam Chomsky:

--------

"The controversy regarding the HRC's practices comes from its enforcement of Section 13.1 of Canada's Human Rights Act, which states that it is discriminatory to communicate by phone or Internet any material "that is likely to expose a person or persons to hatred or contempt." Critics charge that the HRC adjudicators have limited legal training and poor investigatory resources and the result is that the power of section 13.1 is being abused for nuisance cases that would be rightly tossed out of a real court.[1]

Liberal MP Keith Martin has proposed a private member's bill in Parliament to rescind section 13.1 of the Canadian Human Rights Act, upon which federal HRC censorship cases are based.[2] Martin described the legal test of "likely to expose" as "a hole you could drive a Mack truck through," and said it is being applied by "rogue commissions where a small number of people [are] determining what Canadians can and can't say."[1]

Martin asserted that some of history's most important ideas "were originally deemed to be sacrilegious and certainly in opposition to conventional wisdom. Who's to say that a commission cannot rule those ideas out of order and penalize people for saying or thinking them?"[1]
Irwin Cotler, a Canadian human rights scholar and former minister of justice, floated (but did not endorse) the idea that section 13.1 cases should require the authorization of the Attorney-General, which is the requirement for criminal prosecutions for inciting violence or promoting hatred.[1]

Alan Borovoy, general counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, has also criticized Section 13.1. He cited an example of the book Hitler's Willing Executioners, which alleges the complicity of German civilians in the Holocaust, and said that the thesis is arguably "likely to expose" German people to contempt, and therefore be a violation of Section 13.1.[1]

Borovoy also noted that under Section 13.1, "Intent is not a requirement, and truth and reasonable belief in the truth is no defence."[1]

Linguist and analytic philosopher[3] Noam Chomsky has said about the section, "I think it's outrageous, like the comparable European laws. It's also pure hypocrisy. If it were applied the media and journals would be shut down. They don't expose current enemies of the state to hatred or contempt?"[4]



[Отредактировано Jacek K., July 2, 2009 5:57 PM]

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Создано:
July 5, 2009 1:52 AM
Сообщение 179613 — ответ на №179483
John Bunch
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RE: Freedom of speech, under attack in Canada
My view of Canadians has been radically altered...
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Создано:
July 5, 2009 7:31 AM
Сообщение 179616 — ответ на №147713
Maxi Schwarz-Bastami
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RE: Freedom of speech, under attack in the West (Canada and France)

Perhaps an understanding of the Canadian people should precede a view of the Canadian people.   But above all, a bit of sensitivity might be in order.  You have just celebrated the birthday of your country.  There were the usual "happy birthdays" and a bit of the feeling that the whole world celebrates this national holiday of yours.  Normally I would have joined in my own good wishes.  But this time round, you had previously chosen the day of my country's birthday  portray it in a bad light.  It wasn't even something new happening in the news.  And nobody had been bombed, killed, maimed, jailed, hurt.  Just an old bit of news don the day we were celebrating our country's birthday.

You have July 4.  We have July 1.  On July 4 you have fireworks, celebrate the birth of your country and happily receive the congratuations from the world.  On July 1 it iwas our turn.  We had fireworks, we celebrated, and then this here.  Couldn't it have waited?  On a personal level it was disappointing.



[Отредактировано Maxi Schwarz-Bastami, July 5, 2009 7:32 AM]

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Создано:
July 5, 2009 8:10 AM
Сообщение 179623 — ответ на №179469
Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov
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На форумах с: September 13, 2008
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RE: Freedom of speech,

Originally written by John Bunch on July 2, 2009 2:34 PM If so, do the Kazachstanis have the right to sue Sacha Baron Cohen before the Human Rights Commission ? Does every group parodied in that movie have such a right, because he made fun of them and subjected them to ridicule ? And what about the "Brüno" movie ? Should it be banned in Canada ?

 

I still believe there is not enough freedom of speech in the US, although it is in my opinion the freest place I have known. I think people should be able to say absolutely anything they want: but they should also be allowed to sue anybody for slander, if they have legitimate reasons and can prove that something is a lie said with an intention to defame.


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Создано:
July 5, 2009 3:59 PM
Сообщение 179664 — ответ на №179623
John Bunch
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RE: Freedom of speech,
On this 4th of July weekend, a quote from Ben Franklin, on freedom:

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

BTW, I did not really mean to insult Canada. But I am sometimes amazed by Canadian attitudes. I guess this might go back to the fact that Canada was settled in part by Americans who supported the "wrong side" (Britain) in the U.S. Revolutionary War), and who thus have a different attitude than Americans. But I just am sometimes astonished by Canadian attitudes. For instance, an American would not accept waiting 14 months for a "universally covered" hip replacement operation, but Canadians seem to think that that is totally o.k. and fully normal. Also, we don't like the state telling us what we can say, but evidently, the Canadians think it is totally o.k.

I am fine with Canada having a "different way". I just hope that this does not result in effects for us Americans (Islamic terrorists coming down from their "refuge" in Canada, as happened in 2000, when they tried to blow up LAX in Los Angeles).

[Отредактировано John Bunch, July 5, 2009 7:08 PM]

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Создано:
July 6, 2009 5:45 AM
Сообщение 179686 — ответ на №179623
Jacek K.
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На форумах с: February 18, 2003
Местонахождение: Poland
 
RE: Freedom of speech, under attack in France

Originally written by Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov on July 5, 2009 2:10 PM

I still believe there is not enough freedom of speech in the US, although it is in my opinion the freest place I have known.

People somehow forget that the French are now also free to shout "Sarkozy, I can see you!" For whatever reason I cannot find anything in English about the fact that the French just released the teacher who had been arrested for that kind of lèse majesté.

L’homme qui avait crié «Sarkozy, je te vois» à des policiers effectuant un contrôle en gare Saint-Charles en février 2008 a été relaxé, vendredi, par le tribunal de police de Marseille. Le juge de proximité qui présidait le tribunal a estimé que le «tapage injurieux diurne troublant la tranquillité d’autrui» reproché à l’auteur des propos n’était pas constitué. Pour le juge, ces paroles lancées à une heure de pointe peuvent être assimilées à la «rumeur normale» de ce type d’endroit. http://www.liberation.fr/politiques/0101577807-relaxe-pour-le-je-te-vois


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