Dear Colleagues,

An increasing number of translators have been cheated by unscrupulous translation agencies that have contacted those translators directly via their profiles by e-mail or other means.

Generally, there's nothing wrong when this or that outsourcer contacts you directly to offer a job but remember to check the agency (or individual) at the Hall of Fame and Shame and at other similar payment and business practices tools.

The Hall of Fame and Shame is where we report dishonest clients and agencies. More and more translators start to understand that it's necessary to not only attempt to get one's fee but also to warn other colleagues to avoid dishonest operators. Reporting dishonest clients and agencies result in many of them being deprived of their rights to post job ads at TranslatorsCafe.com and other translation portals, which in turn makes it very difficult for dishonest and unscrupulous clients and agencies to find any linguists willing to accept their job offers.

When the right to post job ads have been suspended or blocked at many places, they try actively to find a way out of their exile. One of those ways is by contacting translators directly.

A rule of thumb:

If you have been contacted directly by an outsourcer offering a job you should first of all check their reputation via the Hall of Fame and Shame and other similar payment and business practices tools.

If you see that your potential client has got negative feedback from other translators, you will be wise never to accept any job from that outsourcer since you may end up working for nothing. In case the job offer looks too tempting to pass up, and if you are interested in a gamble, you should only take the job if the outsourcer is willing to pay up front.

If you neglect to follow the above basic rule of good sense, we should expect to see you pretty soon at the Hall of Fame and Shame mourning your money...

Dear Virtual Chairperson,

The first person who receives the posting job subject is someone of your team. It's very weird that under the some rules their's no control about contents of job poster's message. When any job poster is mentioning to contact directly with his other email address, immediately your team should warn him about it before the ads in the air.

Please try to change the method of your work control.  The rest will die itself in the middle of the way.

Thanks

Joon

Hi Joon,

It seems you don't quite understand what we are talking about here.

We are talking about those outsourcers who are already forbidden to post job messages here because of non-payment issues. Trying to find new translators-victims they start to contact freelancers directly by e-mail or other means. Nobody can control that except freelancers themselves. So please don't wait for a nanny - secure your business yourself...

NK

Thank you, Nikita,

Now, I can understand.

Joon

Originally written by Yousra Shahy on February 19, 2007 6:00 PM What about those who do not have access to "the hall of fame and shame"?

Originally written by Lucia Montenegro on February 19, 2007 7:01 PM I don't have access to the Hall of Fame and Shame yet... I'm planning to upgrade my account as soon as I get a translation job here... is there any other tip that can help me in this case?

Dear Yousra and Lucia,

Certainly the best way to secure yourself is to upgrade your TC membership, get full access to the Hall of Fame and Shame and thoroughly check everyone before accepting a job.

But even if you haven't upgraded to Master Membership yet you still can use some information of the Hall of Fame and Shame.

Go to Agency Search by Name on the TC home page and find an agency in question (you can also find any individual TC member in freelancers section). At the end you should get at agency's profile page and see something like in the following screen shot:

You can't read the details in the Hall of Fame and Shame if you are not a paid member but you can see the resulting rating in Traslators' Rating section in agency's profile. In many cases it's enough to decide whether you want to accept a job from this outsourcer...

Please note: You can find only those agencies that have been registered at TranslatorsCafe.com by their representatives or submitted by other TC members.

NK

Thank you so much for your advice! I'll keep on reading your posts as well, as you always give very good hints

Lucia

Dear Nikita,

what if the agency is not even a member of TC (so no rating), yet they have contacted you via TC ?

Teodora

Hi Teodora,

If there's no rating you can always post in the HFS an enquiry and ask the colleagues about their experience with the outsourcer in question. You can post an enquiry about anybody: members of TC as well as non-members. 

But in the situation you've described you should prick up your ears and you will inevitably hear the bells of alarm ringing.

Just ask yourself a very simple question: 'They have contacted me via TC, it means they perfectly know about the site and even more: indirectly they do use it. The membership is free, why are they not members then?'

For some reason they don't want to openly operate via TC. Why? Quite possible they were members of the site before but later were deprived of their rights to post jobs because of non-payment issues and thus now they try to find new victims operating via e-mail messages under another name.

The matter is that when they are members of the site we can control them and when they are not members they are less controllable.

Another reason for them not to be members of TC is that perhaps they are not an agency but a direct end client that decided to find a service provider himself. 

Generally it's always very nice to have direct end clients but at the same time we should remember that it's the most risky variant. To deal with end clients directly is much more risky than to work for them via an agency (unless the end client is a well-known and well-established corporation).

Why is it risky? Because agencies want to be successful in the translation industry not for a couple of months but for years and for that reason they usually do care about their reputation (in case of poor reputation nobody would agree to work for them).

Most of end clients belong to other industries and don't care much about their reputation in our industry. For example they just want their web site to be translated into many languages. After that they may not need translation services for years and thus may not need us. That's why they don't care. About one case of that kind you can read HERE (approx. 15 translators were not paid for their two months work).

When I for one deal with end clients directly I usually deliver the work after prepayment. Sometimes I send a translation before payment but in this case my client can only see a part of the translation (in non-editable form) and the rest is closed and password protected. After sending the payment the client gets the password to open the file. It works for me.

NK

Nikita, how do you send a file showing only part of the translation, and password protect it? It sounds like a great solution.

Thanks!

A detailed contract stating the payment terms/quality requirements will be helpful. Down payment should be a must to start your work.

I agree with Grace on this issue. You'd better sign a formal contract with the client.

Thanks,

Dongjun

Originally written by Grace Zhao on May 20, 2007 12:47 PM A detailed contract stating the payment terms/quality requirements will be helpful. Down payment should be a must to start your work.

Hello Gabrielle,

I was reading the thread and wondered if you got an answer from Nikita about the file protected with a password.

Could you be so nice as to pass me the info if you have it, please?

Thanks a lot!

Juliana

Originally written by Terry Waltz, Ph.D. on July 25, 2007 7:10 PM not a bad idea to password protect your invoices to prevent changes.

Geeze lowize...to prevent changes to an invoice?

'People' change invoices? I have never heard of it. It can't be that common or am I living in la-la-land? Wow

Nanna

Originally written by Gabrielle Kauffmann on May 1, 2007 2:06 PM Nikita, how do you send a file showing only part of the translation, and password protect it? It sounds like a great solution.

Originally written by Juliana Damia on July 18, 2007 12:29 AM I was reading the thread and wondered if you got an answer from Nikita about the file protected with a password.

Originally written by Patricia Sabau on July 25, 2007 4:27 PM Hello Nikita, I have a  question:  can you tell me how to encode the text I translate with a password, so that I'm assured that my job is secured?

Dear Gabrielle, Juliana and Patricia:

Trying to keep this important thread laconic and as close to the topic as possible I have started another thread specially dedicated to documents encryption. It is called How to password protect your job before delivering it to a client.

NK

An approved estimate is a contract. You just add your terms of business at the bottom, pop it off and he emails you back a scan of the signed copy.

Shkval, I haven't found direct direct clients risky. I guess individual national markets and language pairs vary.

Arthur:

• Do many people here know how to word such a contract?
• Do we usually have time to discuss such a contract when we get a job offer?
• Do many people here know how to get their say it $50-100 if something goes wrong even if they have such a contract?

My answer to all the questions above: NO.

Originally written by Arthur Borges on July 30, 2007 2:16 PM I haven't found direct direct clients risky.

Happy you. I only hope not to see you one day in the Hall of Fame and Shame with a non-payment complaint. I do find direct clients risky and I have explained why in Post #116284.

NK

Originally written by Arthur Borges on July 30, 2007 2:34 PM Now, I start by listening to the client, exploring her/his need(s), finding a mutually acceptable dealine, asking for a copy of the document before final acceptance and then closing with MY need: terms of payment. If the client has no time for my need, I'm afraid I have no time for hers/his:...

I had several questions about what seemed a convoluted editing and proofreading procedure, so I did the obvious thing, I asked for clarification 

Client promptly wrote back that she had no time: was very pressed, and that I could ask questions later. I simply replied that while I could easily understand that she was busy, I also felt that in order to provide her with the best possible service, I needed clarification and if she could not find the time to clarify matters then she had better find another service provider.

Suddenly, she had the time...

Nanna

Hi,

I think it is about time we asked for some of the payment in advance, possibly at the time of the signing of the contract.

Edited by a TC administrator for the thread integrity purpose.

Hi Samuel:

Originally written by Samuel Hunt on July 30, 2007 10:01 PM How do clients react to finding out that they've been delivered a 'locked' translation file?

In my case they just payed the bill and received the pass in minutes.

Originally written by Samuel Hunt on July 30, 2007 10:01 PM In spite of my concern over the need to prevent translators from being defrauded, the locked-file password protection method strikes me as being markedly anti-client.

 

I don't think password protection method is markedly anti-client. Can you name too many products that you can get without paying for them up-front? Translation is just one of the products.

Originally written by Samuel Hunt on July 30, 2007 10:01 PM To expect an agency to pay up immediately before the file can even be accessed in its entirety seems draconian.

 

Samuel, why do you speak here about agencies? If you have a look at the name of this thread you will see that it is dedicated to the offers coming from direct clients not agencies. Though I tend to use the locked-file password protection method with totally unknown agencies as well.

Originally written by Samuel Hunt on July 30, 2007 10:01 PM I have heard of methods (mostly for pdf files, I believe), which allow you to create a fully accessible file which cannot be copied, and will disappear or lock itself after a certain period of time.

 

I haven't heard of such methods (though it sounds interesting). As for password-protected PDF files, I can decrypt practically any of them. BTW decryption of password-protected Adobe PDF files is one of the services I offer: I decrypt them for those who can't do it themselves.

NK

Dear Catherine, Jane and all others:

Please try to keep strongly on topic: I have moved your posts concerning payment terms to the thread called Payment 60 days after the invoice: common practice?

Dear Dodo Kaipdodo,

For the same reason I have moved your post to the thread How to password protect your job before delivering it to a client.

If you want to discuss anything connected with this thread but not directly to the topic please find an appropriate existing thread or start a new one if it doesn't exist yet.

All further off-topic posts will be deleted without any notice. Hope you understand.

NK

Dear all,

Thanks for all great information, especially Nikita. I'm a beginner translator so I read more than I can contribute right now. Especially the file protection option in Word sounds great, I think I'm going to implement that. Also thanks to Jonathan for the humour .

Regards,

Tammo

The current status of the site does look rather commercial. "Lock picking"? "Spy equipment"?

Perhaps it would be a good idea to whip together a placeholder index page of your own, before too many users and bots judge the site by its current content.

Originally written by Ina Brachmann on November 28, 2008 7:42 AM I did something similar and did clarify that my translation is not to be used without payment resp, my permission (has not being answered by the client yet). I have an assignment with the client saying that, when and how I have to deliver, which I have done so far. Currently I am working on a general/legal/contract agreement to be signed for before any translation or alteration for the future.

This all sounds to me like a lot of fuss about nothing at all. I have been freelance translating and giving out translation work since 1979 and never had any problem of the type you describe with any customer or translator in that entire time. It seems to me that you might have forgotten Translator's Rule #2: "Choose your customers carefully!"

I certainly am not going to insist on a written contract for a mere translation job and I decline to sign one if an agency asks me to. When I give out translation work, I do not ask the translator to sign a contract nor would I give work to a translator who insisted on having a written contract. Amateur contracts are far worse than no contract at all. Would you expect the average translator or agency owner to have had training in contract law or to have his/her own contract lawyer on the payroll?

I have translated for many direct customers who maintain their own legal departments and not one of them has ever suggested having a written contract, even for very big jobs - a purchase order has always been sufficient. If you insist that one of those customers signs a contract then you are going to involve their legal department and that would mean that you would have to show up for contract negotiations with your own contract lawyer. No, I believe that you are on the wrong track, Ina! Take more care vetting your potential customers and you won't get into the position that you find yourself in now.

If you insist on having a written contract then you are presumably prepared to enforce it in the courts. Do you have the time and resources to do that? If you are not prepared to enforce it then it is a hollow sham. I have always maintained that most translators work with one foot in the courtroom; what you are proposing would get them there with both feet!

Derek

Originally written by Astana Translations Group . on December 1, 2008 7:05 PM Derek: Where do I get other rules? So far so good, no probs

They are handed down from father to son since time immemorial. Translators's Rule #1 is, of course: "Never translate the Koran!"

Derek 

The same here, but I suspect, Derek, that this may be limited to the world of dinosaurs which is on the verge of extinction...

Originally written by Ina Brachmann on December 1, 2008 6:01 PM What is your point Derek? Showing me, that you don't have this experience. What can we all learn from this?

All it shows, Ina, is that at least one translator can work freelance for over 30 years without ever having needed a written contract to get paid, and by extention, that following normal commercial business principles and being careful is usually sufficient. Unfortunately, many freelance translators would not recognize normal commercial business principles even if they were hit over the head with them.

Every client/customer relationship is different.

In some respects, yes. Nevertheless, normal commercial business principles are pretty much the same everywhere, caveat emptor being universal, taking on work for strangers without a payment guarantee deposited at a bank being intrinsically high risk, a written contract notwithstanding.

Sometimes there is no need for an agreement, but mostly there is.

So we take diametrically opposite stands. My point was that "Sometimes there is need for an agreement, but mostly there is not".

I am neither an accountant nor a lawyer nor do I want to go to court. If I have to, I will.

And my point was: "I am neither an accountant nor a lawyer nor do I want to go to court. If I have to, I will find some way not to."

Besides, every field of translation attracts different clients and therefore needs different methods.

When you accept an order as a freelance you are effectively giving the customer an unsecured loan for the amount of the order. If you accept a job from somebody who you cannot rely on to pay you then a written contract is not going to save you from some very heavy expense, even if you win, and even if only in time lost and aggravation. The essential thing is to work only for customers who you can reasonably trust, who would have no motive to try to get a translation made without having to pay for it - (there are far easier ways to cheat people out of very much higher sums.)

There are just as many (maybe even a lot more) untrustworthy translators as there are untrustworthy translation customers. Trust works both ways. I have always shown my customers that I trust them by guaranteeing them that if they are not completely satisfied with my work then I will not charge them for it (check out my profile here, for example). Nobody has ever taken me up on that deal, not once in all those years.

That is why I propose that by taking work only from customers who you can trust and adhering to normal commercial business principles and always delivering satisfactory work is a better guarantee of getting paid than having a written contract upon which to litigate. A 100% guarantee it is certainly not but then having a written contract is even less secure - and a great deal more trouble to arrange and enforce.

I think everybody is free to decide, whether one wants a contract or not. I just try to make an effort (by being honest) to get people discuss this topic.

OK, Ina, so I am discussing it!

What ideas or suggestions do you have in terms of checking clients, who are spread around globe?

I covered that already - adhere to normal commercial business principles and deal only with customers who you can trust. It is nothing to do with their being spread around the globe. I have trusted people all around the globe in my time and not been disappointed but there are some people living on my street for whom I keep my virtual hand on my virtual wallet every time they come near me.

The corollary is, of course, have a fine nose for distinguishing those you can trust from those you cannot.

Derek
 

Originally written by Jacek Krankowski on December 1, 2008 8:36 PM The same here, but I suspect, Derek, that this may be limited to the world of dinosaurs which is on the verge of extinction...

But that is a different philosophy altogether, Jacek! Every January 1st I wake up with the thought that we have made it once again all that long way around our local star and that despite all those asteroids crossing our orbit perilously close, some well predicted, others less so, the big hit has yet to take place and there is nothing that I can do about it anyway - here we go around again!

That aside, normal commercial business principles have retained their validity for many thousands of years and will continue to do so at least until H. sapiens sapiens goes the way of the Allosaurus and the Stegosaurus.

More to the point, the web page from which I obtained that picture is titled "What is a Dinosaurs ?" which inevitably raises the question "What is English grammars ?" and "Will H. sapiens sapiens eventually be able to communicate only by grunts before his extinction or will the very last one still be able to get out a loud "Merde!" before the shock wave hits?" My money is all going on the bet that communication will be by a series of grunts long before the rats, worms and cockroaches take over once again and we are just another evolutionary aberration whose slate has again been wiped clean.

Derek
PS: I do hope that you have not tricked me into drifting this thread, Jacek?

At which point, we will be able to say that RE: The future has arrived anyway, so it will start all over again...

Except that there might be even less trust around than now. An unemployed ex-colleague of mine (not a translator) just told me the other day the truth about the Polish business world (from which I am comofortably insulated, living in an enclave) and that sent shivers down my spine... There is no ethics anywhere in that demoralized jungle where employees do not get paid salaries, courts are helpless, etc.

Jacek

Three days ago, I received what looked like a wonderful business proposition. Still, there was a little worry sound somewhere in the back of my mind, but while rereading the letter, which was written with impeccable style and grammar, I couldn't put my finger on why the worry sound was getting louder and louder. I checked the website, very professional. I read every sub header, still okay. Then I got to the 'Who we are' sub page. All I see is stegosauruscom with no email address, no telephone number, no name or names, and no physical address, just the same stegosauruscom, repeated.

I am not, of course, going to do business with an extinct stegosaurus. However, I still can't figure out what alerted my worry sound in the initial approach. Sometimes it helps me to have a physical letter so I print it out and immediately see the problem: Dear Mr. or Mrs. Greetings....

Nanna

You mean Derek managed to play this trick on you overnight???

Smoke and mirrors

Gotta run...

N.

There seems to be some terminological confusion here.  A "contract," in Anglo-American law, is formed whenever there is an offer and an acceptance of an enforceable promise.  There need not be any formal document called a "contract," or even any document at all.  A contract may be oral or implied, and a purchase order, if accepted, constitutes a contract.  So it is inaccurate to say that a purchase order is not a contract - if it has been accepted, it is a contract.

The law in Germany may of course be different.  But what law governs an internet-based translation contract is a tricky question, and different countries may consider one or more of the following factors as relevant, or even decisive in and of themselves:  1) the location of the buyer, 2) the location of the seller, 3) the location where the work is to be performed, 4) the location where it is to be used, 5) the location where its effects will be experienced, 6) the location of the server that hosts the internet site.  So all should note that theoretically their contracts may be governed, under approach 6, by the law of the jurisdiction that TC maintains its server, wherever that may be!

Originally written by David Kallans on December 2, 2008 4:03 PM There seems to be some terminological confusion here.  A "contract," in Anglo-American law, is formed whenever there is an offer and an acceptance of an enforceable promise.  There need not be any formal document called a "contract," or even any document at all.

No, there is no confusion here unless you are intent on introducing it, David! Yes, we know that a contract is formed when a translator accepts a job for a consideration. I never did claim that accepting a purchase order was not a contract, in fact I argued at length that a purchase order and the subsequent acceptance was the preferred form and I expressly used the term "written contract" to make it clear that was the form that I was advising against.

By "written contract", if I have to spell it out, I mean a document couched in court-tested legal language in which the terms of the contract are detailed in writing and signed by the parties as evidence of their intentions. That has to be written or adapted by a lawyer for each case or it is just a template which might or might not meet the translator's real need and might or might not stand up if contested. In any event it will cost a packet.

The notion of preparing a "written contract" for a simple translation is in my view ridiculous. All there is to establish is:

1. This is what is to be translated and into which language.

2. When it has to be delivered.

3. How much is going to be paid for it and when.

I feel sure that covers the bulk of all translations. Naturally, there can be any number of details to settle and it is convenient to fix them in writing if there is any real risk of a misunderstanding. This can be in the form of a simple e-mail list confirming what has been already agreed or it can go as far as accepting a standard "company documentation specification" covering the technical aspects and in the form of printed general and special commercial terms and conditions (often in the small print on the back of the purchase order) but that surely has to be the exception and it is still not going to help you if you are working for a bad (or fraudulent) payer.

But what we were discussing (or what I thought we were discussing) was the insistence by the translator on having a written form of contract that was to be signed by the translation customer with the intention of imposing more stringent payment conditions than usual on that customer. That could only be done by insisting on some kind of bank guarantee of payment, like an irrevocable letter of credit or of payment in advance against some kind of security. That might be reasonable for a million dollar deal but it is hopelessly out of proportion in cost and time for the average translation job. For a start you have to establish that the person signing the contract is who he says he/she is and that they are authorized to sign contracts binding whoever is eventually due to pay your invoice. That alone can be difficult.

I do translation work for local commercial customers on the basis of a handshake (real or implied), like diamond dealers do, for example. Like most translators, I do translation work for overseas customers on the basis of a virtual handshake (an exchange of e-mails, one from the customer saying "translate this by Friday" and another from me saying "OK"). Some customers (municipalities, large corporations) often have a procurement system that requires them to use a special form sheet but that mostly comes either as a fax or as a PDF file and they are the exception.

The rule just has to be: "If you ever feel the need for a written contract when dealing with a certain translation customer then that is a pretty good indication that you should turn down the job."

However, if you are feeling lucky that day and take on the job anyway then you should immediately understand that you have just given a total stranger an unsecured loan with all that entails. One way to handle that is to mentally write it off as a gift so that when he/she does pay it comes as a pleasant surprise!

Derek

Originally written by Jonathan Downie on December 12, 2008 9:44 AM If an invoice has a payment date on it and the client does not protest to that date does that mean that they have accepted that legally they should pay the balance on or before that date?

In my limited experience, direct customers have their own general procurement conditions and they are very often printed in a very small medium-grey font on the back of their purchase order and those conditions very often include a provision for invoices to be paid within, for example, 90 days of receipt of the invoice and it would be you who has accepted their conditions by explicitely acknowledging receipt of their order, or implicitely by carrying out the work. 

Trying to impose your payment conditions as late as with the invoice strikes me as being rather futile. I feel sure that they can safely ignore them. The time to define your payment conditions is with your offer, after that, in my opinion, it is too late.

I am having the opposite problem at the moment. Direct customers are trying to use up their budgets before the end of the year and are pressing me to send my invoices now, long before I have finished the work, in one case before I have even started.

It is all relative. As long as you eventually get paid, it is hardly worth making a "legal" fuss about a week or two or even a month or two one way or the other.

Derek

I have always operated this way and have always found it beneficial for my general health.

Jacek

Originally written by Jonathan Downie on December 12, 2008 12:58 PM bills should be paid on time.

Absolutely. It's not that in my last post I was trying to counter with a healthy Buddhist technique the fact that bills are not paid on time, though. Not at all. I was just trying to apply common sense to facts of life.

if the money isn't there, don't contract out the job!

Yet people will contract out jobs having no cash flow, so all contractors can do is apply, again, common sense in their Web promiscuity.

Jacek

Originally written by Laurent Chiacchierini on December 12, 2008 11:27 AM ... even though, as a freelancer, you don't have the same credit facilities as a company...

Or cannot get Congress to stay in session late to give you a bail-out!

One of my B2B principles is not to actually need the money from any particular translation job so that if it all goes pear-shaped I don't get foreclosed or have to go hungry until the next job is done. This is the commercial principle of always having contingency reserves.

Strictly speaking, that is the only sane way to freelance - not to actually need the money! You need to build up your contingency reserves out of the jobs that do pay on time, say, 5 - 10% of every job, paid into a reserve account.

But in the distant past, I was able on occasions to get a bridging loan from my bank by presenting the purchase order as evidence of my ability to repay but always by presenting an invoice for a job already completed (for a known solvent client, like a local manufacturer).

Of course, if you are doing a job for an unknown client half way across the world (high risk, not to be recommended) and there is no sign of payment even months after you sent your invoice and they don't answer your e-mails then it might be a good idea to get on with the work you have in hand and write the other one off as a bad debt. There is such a thing as throwing good money (or good translating time) after bad!

Derek

Originally written by Jonathan Downie on December 12, 2008 11:58 AM The point is that in the B2B world conditions are normally made by MUTUAL agreement.  Neither party should be able to unilaterally determine the conditions of payment but anyway...

It depends entirely on who needs who the most. If the translator really needs the job but the customer has a choice of translators then the customer unilaterally dictates the terms of payment. How could it be any other way? If the customer has left it too late to go shopping for an amenable translator and you are his last chance late on a Friday afternoon when none of the others are answering their e-mails then you are in a position to demand payment in advance even. I have done that several times.

As much as I agree with the general idea of the discussions, I have to point out that newer freelancers may not be able to be as relaxed with payments.  If bills need to be paid, they need paid.

Ah, yes, "new freelancers", how very sad! They should be grateful to be paid at all! That is why I always advise "new freelancers" to keep their day jobs.

As one of my translator colleagues has said elsewhere, if the money isn't there, don't contract out the job!

It seems to me that at least half the translation agencies in the world would have to go out of business if they followed that rule. The money is often not there until the customer pays. There are plenty of agencies that settle up monthly, one month in arrears, and even a few that settle up quarterly. Payment ninety days after receipt of invoice seems to be standard for very large industrial companies.

Sometímes I get paid via PayPal. I e-mail my invoice and the customer transfers the money to PayPal within the hour. Then I transfer the same amount to my bank account and it must be there in milliseconds but they sit on it for 5-7 days before it appears on my statement, PayPal says that this is standard, it is not anyhing that anybody can do something about. So if the banks can do it, why shouldn't an agency being run on a shoestring sit on payments to earn a little interest for 3 months if they can?

Derek

Originally written by Derek Thornton on December 12, 2008 1:12 PM This is the commercial principle of always having contingency reserves.

Originally written by Derek Thornton on December 12, 2008 1:51 PM I always advise "new freelancers" to keep their day jobs.

Surprisingly, these old-fashioned rules, which have always worked in the past, are likely to turn out more and more useful also in the coming years. You can never stress them enough!

Jacek

Originally written by Laurent J. Krauland on January 5, 2009 6:39 PM ... agencies run on a shoestring should be selling haberdashery, preferably made in some low-cost country (gross benefit margin from 300% on and upwards, so there's no need to keep money on a savings account for a meager 3.5% or even 6.0% interest rate).

That was ages ago and a lot of water has passed under the bridge since I wrote that and even General Motors has cashflow problems. I wonder how often translation agency owners have to decide at the end of the month whether to pay their employees or their freelance translators or pay the heating bill?

Derek 

Originally written by Dodo Kaipdodo on January 5, 2009 7:27 PM To run an agency, you have to have money to do that. To be a decent translator, you have to have money of your own.

How about working for this outfit?

"low budget übersetzungen" geht bald auf den deutschen Markt und sucht hierfür noch Studenten oder Berufsanfänger, die günstig übersetzen. Interessenten können ihren Lebenslauf an infode@lowbudgettranslations.com schicken Website : www.lowbudgetvertalingen.nl"

That is the first time I have seen an agency explicitly stating that it is hiring students or beginners who do cheap translations (they call them "semi-professional" translators on their website). Is this a sign of the times or are conditions about to get even tougher? I can't wait to find out how much they pay!

They are apparently charging their customers 11 eurocents/word for EN, DE, FR, IT and ES and claim that they charge less than half of what other agencies charge for DA, SV, NO and PT so those students are not going to get much, I wonder how long that have to wait to get paid?

("Voor de gangbare talen zoals Engels, Duits, Frans, Italiaans en Spaans is het woordtarief €0,11. Voor andere talen zoals Deens, Zweeds, Noors of Portugees rekenen wij vaak minder dan de helft van wat andere vertaalbureaus vragen.")

They claim to have offices in Amsterdam, Madrid, Vienna, Helsinki, London, New York and Paris.

Maybe the day is getting closer when we will read:

"lowbudget zahnbehandlungen" will soon be active on the German market and is looking for students or beginners who do cheap dental work. If you are interested, send your CV to infode@lowbudgetdentalwork.com."

Derek

Is this a sign of the times or are conditions about to get even tougher?

Of the times, I`m afraid. Now they seem to want discounts for good translations...

Maybe the day is getting closer when we will read:"lowbudget zahnbehandlungen" will soon be active on the German market and is looking for students or beginners who do cheap dental work. If you are interested, send your CV to infode@lowbudgetdentalwork.com."

Would you buy the cheap dental work? As a patient, I mean?

Sign of the times? (this is a job posted today) for En/Fr (that's actually received 10 'bids' already

[During this recession times the price we can offer is 0.02 USD.
...Required software: PowerPoint. Job place: Delhi, Delhi, India]

Can't check... but we could probably bet that their "pre-recession times" rates weren't much higher! How can you even pay for your Trados at 1.5 eurocent/word, much less pay the rent??

Re. the topic of this thread: I've never had any problem payments with direct clients in more than 2 decades (only with a few colleagues and agencies long since deleted out of my address book). But then, I never look for and would never accept to work for direct clients at the end of the world via translation web sites - that's just asking for it (and this is true also for outsourcing agencies/ intermediaries, e.g. the offer posted above)...

df

As per agencies and direct job offers, and to go on with what I said before - by accepting either low rates, or impossible delivery dates, or long long payment deadlines, or a combination of those three, or... etc., we just feed the hollow and greedy green-eyed monster of non-payment, recession and the like!

Laurent K.

Originally written by Laurent J. Krauland on January 6, 2009 3:42 PM ... - by accepting either low rates, or impossible delivery dates, or long long payment deadlines, or a combination of those three, or... etc., we just feed the hollow and greedy green-eyed monster of non-payment, recession and the like!

Right, but as far as the impossible delivery dates are concerned, we are the weakest link in the chain. There is a belief in the catalog industry, for example, that translators are the most easy to compress. And if it is too much for one to do in the available time then you just get another one and split the work between them. You cannot do that with a printer, have one do one half of a catalog and the other printer do the other half and then stick them together, even if it would work the printers would not go along with it but translators always seem to be willing to, or at least it is always possible to find some who will.

I have had that happen to me. I agreed to do a job by a certain date (4 weeks) and shortly after I had started they told me that due to the printer's other commitments, I would have to be finished in 3 weeks, the printer had told them to go find another printer if that was not convenient. I told them that I was going to finish in the 4 weeks originally promised so they just took half the job away from me and gave it to another translator.

I don't see any way around that tactic.

Derek

My current belief is that, deep down inside us, we know what is right and what is wrong - call it angelism, optimism or idealism...

And when we have tactics such as those you describe appearing in a global process, we know that someone has played foul elsewhere. Maybe nothing to really worry about, but something to take into account for a potential future co-operation with such clients.

I had a potential client who asked me to give them 20% rebate even before the first job. When I completed it and received their "feedback and corrections", I knew why I never should have accepted their one-off offer in the first place: they were just looking for some new ideas and phrasings they could build upon in their own way. 

Laurent K.  

As has been pointed out, business-wise it doesn't make sense for an outsourcer to pay $00.04 per word when s/he can get the job done for less. If it works, it works.

Even TDC (Tele Denmark Communication) a giant in telecommunications is feeling the recession - they keep overcharging me and when I complain and refuse to pay the bill unless they remove the overcharge, I am told that they will deduct the overcharge on the next bill, which is paid quarterly. No, I will not lend TDC my hard earned money for the next quarter. "That's just the way it is," I'm told. "I must pay or risk a surcharge."

My thoughts on the matter are that TDC is seen as so big and so powerful that no one complains, and thus they can get away with it. If it works, it works! I have complained! It's stressful and tiring writing all those letters but it works.

Why should I allow TDC, whose chairman earns millions of kroner per year, to borrow my money without interest (of course) and against my will. 

By allowing outsourcers and other 'godtfolk' to behave as though they are above reproach, I am consenting to behaviour which in my view is fuelled by greed.

I will NOT!

Nanna

Surely your client was not legally entitled to unilaterally amend the agreement you initially had entered into?

Exactly!

Laurent K. 

exactly, Nanna! My way of looking at it too.

Originally written by Laurent J. Krauland on January 6, 2009 6:42 PM ... but something to take into account for a potential future co-operation with such clients. Laurent K.

... and to take into account as well for a potential (i.e. highly unlikely in my case) future cooperation with any translators-colleagues who accept to work for such clients... (easy to keep tabs: they generally post here or on other similar sites to complain about their 2-cent client who won't pay!! duh... surprise!)

df

Originally written by Thor Kottelin on January 6, 2009 5:54 PM Surely your client was not legally entitled to unilaterally amend the agreement you initially had entered into?

I have no idea and I wasn't about to hire a lawyer to find out! It was the feeling of being compressed that irked and I doubt whether a lawsuit would have cured that.

Derek

And that's the only thing that (subjectively) can and will matter AFAIAC at the end of the day... Even with a rather thick skin, which seems to be required in the standard equipment of every Modern Times translator.

Laurent K. 

Originally written by Laurent J. Krauland on January 6, 2009 3:42 PM ... - by accepting either low rates, or impossible delivery dates ...

Something odd must be going on because I have the impression that the impossible delivery dates are getting even more impossible. I am getting several inquiries a day now asking me if I can take on thousands, even tens of thousands of words, sight unseen, with deadlines that imply 3000-4000 words/day. Many of them say that the deadline cannot possibly be extended under any circumstances. Some of them are so urgent that the inquiry has to be made by telephone, e-mail obviously takes too long - they probably have the client waiting on another line.

Could it be that the lower limit has been reached by the price cutters and now they are underbidding each other in delivery times?

I suppose the logic is: If you can do it for the price then you should be able to meet the impossible deadline otherwise you could get a better hourly rate bagging hamburgers.

I have even had such inquiries from agencies who claim on their websites that they deliver the highest quality and use only translators with a recent degree in translation and years of experience.

The conclusion is obvious: There must be very many direct clients about who have had bad experiences with such agencies and are dying to make direct contact with the translators if they can. I deduce this from my observation that many agencies have upped the penalty for contacting their clients directly from EUR 2000 to EUR 5000 recently plus compensation for loss of earnings. I am wondering if this is only bluff and whether such clauses are contra bonos mores ("sittenwidrig" in German).

There is probably a translators' forum with a contact service somewhere on the Internet that does not admit translation agencies as members and advertises its services only amongst likely direct customers. I would join it tomorrow if I could find it, not that I am short of work but some of the agencies reading this posting are beginning to get on my nerves. 

Derek

Funny you should bring those two things up.  I myself have seen the same kind of impossible deadlines.  if only we were robots, we might not mind as much.

Originally written by Jonathan Downie on January 13, 2009 1:47 PM legally a translation contract would only be binding for the length of time from the job being accepted to payment being made (unless the contract explicitly states otherwise, in which case, anyone signing it needs their head checked).

Well, but a poor agency can try and phish, can`t it?

Originally written by Jonathan Downie on January 13, 2009 6:47 PM As for not contacting clients: has no one told those agencies that it is very difficult, if possible at all, to get such clauses to stick legally?  Firstly, it is a restriction of trade and most Western countries look down on them anyway.  Secondly, legally a translation contract would only be binding for the length of time from the job being accepted to payment being made (unless the contract explicitly states otherwise, in which case, anyone signing it needs their head checked).  So, the agencies could find themselves trying to enforce the terms of a contract that no longer exists.

I have had an agency send me three jobs, the original files, so that it is clear who the clients are. After I declined to do any of them because I am too busy anyway, they sent me the contract to sign by which I agree, now and for the next two years, to be fined EUR 5000 each plus compensation for loss of earnings should I have the temerity to contact any of those clients directly.

I need my head checked anyway but I wonder if I should sign it just to be nice?

Derek 

You could always be funny and sin and then sue them.  Actually, scratch that.  You should invite them to talk to a lawyer and inform them that your view of their contract is somewhat akin you your view of Andrex. 

I think it's a good question from Derek:

Originally written by Derek Thornton on January 13, 2009 8:37 PM I have had an agency send me three jobs, the original files, so that it is clear who the clients are. After I declined to do any of them because I am too busy anyway, they sent me the contract to sign by which I agree, now and for the next two years, to be fined EUR 5000 each plus compensation for loss of earnings should I have the temerity to contact any of those clients directly. I need my head checked anyway but I wonder if I should sign it just to be nice? Derek

Knowing myself I would probably sign it, just to be rid of the hassle. On the other hand I object to these practices, because it's a complete lack of confidence of my integrity. But that's a personal feeling. Probably there are or have been translators that go and contact the endclient in above mentioned case, leaving the agency with a probability to loose a client, so they try to protect themselves, which is perfectly understandable.

But there should also be trust in business. Where would we be without it? Therefore in this case (when I have been sent documents (even unasked maybe?) with which I have done nothing) I might just say: "No, I don't sign this; you can trust me that I won't contact your endclient, because that would violate my integrity. I don't work like that".

Interesting (maybe somewhat theoretical) case is when the endclient would call me a few days later and ask for a translation, ...

Regards all,

Tammo

I realized the same thing - direct job offer was suspicious - I was contacted, the original files were sent, the rate they offered was ridiculously low. So I checked Hall of Fame and Shame and saw that the company has a bad reputation. I told them that I could exceptionally accept the job with the lower than normal rate but only if they paid in advance since their reputation is not good as a payer. They got furious, almost insulting, calling me frantically (8 times in an hour when I was outside of the house) and demanding me to accept the assignment. Three different persons tried to approach, convincing that the bad reputation was only rumours and everything is fine now. But they are banned here, so are they in a couple of other directories. So they tried to approach new members directly.

Originally written by Derek Thornton on January 13, 2009 8:37 PM ....should I have the temerity to contact any of those clients directly.

Would you do so?

If not, I would just agree to that restriction.

Jacek

In my view, any agency which sends unsolicited documents to a translator bears the risk of any consequences this might have, including the possibility that the translator might have the temerity to contact the company clearly visible on the documents. Surely, the translation agency is acting irresponsibly and breaching confidentiality obligations in relation to its client by sending out such documents unsolicited?? It most certainly isn't the translator's fault. Advance contact by phone to enquire about the translator's availability and interest in the job would be the right way to do things, possibility coupled with information on the confidential nature of any documents subsequently dispatched.

Catriona Thomas

Since it is not likely to hold up legally I might agree with you on that one.  On the other hand, I am in complete agreement that if agencies were actually doing a decent job they shouldn't need such clauses as their "added value" should be enough.  The truth is, unfortunately, that in most cases this simply isn't true.

As another funny example, today I noticed a 25,000 word powerpoint presentation that they said needed to be turned around in 3 days.  At least he said he was happy to split it between 2 translators... 

Originally written by Derek Thornton on January 13, 2009 6:21 PM There is probably a translators' forum with a contact service somewhere on the Internet that does not admit translation agencies as members and advertises its services only amongst likely direct customers. I would join it tomorrow if I could find it, not that I am short of work but some of the agencies reading this posting are beginning to get on my nerves.  Derek

Not a translators' forum, but how about checking out Quotatis and asking them for details? (for Germany: http://www.quotatis.de - don't be upset by the HP, in France you can also register when you are a freelance translator but, of course - the registration is not for free).

Laurent K.

I had a simular story. I added that agency to my ignore list. They were sending me emails with request to accept the job.

I responded with my negative feedback.

http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/SelectedJob.asp?Job=62916 :

"   I have a    s m a l l   c o m p a n y   which designs and distributes products for wheelchair users. I have several small projects. The projects include some webpages, some press releases and perhaps a catalog. All added together, it is a mid-sized translation project. It is NOT highly technical in nature but You MUST be mother tongue German.  The two criteria I am looking for are, please mention both in your response: * Low Prices: If you are a higher priced translator, do not bother to post a bid... "

Well then.. you must be looking for a very small translator if your company is so small indeed.

25 bids for one translation ??

almost all  of the bids are too high

and the rest are poor

or the translator is not small enough comparing to how small the company is )

Originally written by Stefan Macovei on September 13, 2009 8:31 PM 25 bids for one translation ?? almost all  of the bids are too high and the rest are poor or the translator is not small enough comparing to how small the company is )

None of the above. I bet that the client has never hired a translator before but thinks that he is being smart in apparently calling for an unspecified "high quality" for an unspecified "low price". As a result, he is going to have to sift through 25 replies only to find that not one if them will do a, for him, satisfactory job, i.e. not be able to deliver the highest possible quality for the lowest possible price which is what he is apparently looking for.

It is not as easy to find a good translator as a lot of people appear to think. To make matters worse, he is in Lithuania, poor fellah!

I partly blame TC, as far as I can see they do not provide any useful guidance for people looking for a translator.

Derek

Originally written by Derek Thornton on September 13, 2009 10:15 PM I partly blame TC, as far as I can see they do not provide any useful guidance for people looking for a translator.

http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/FR/HowTo.asp#How%20to%20Buy%20a%20Translation

Originally written by Derek Thornton on September 13, 2009 10:15 PM I partly blame TC, as far as I can see they do not provide any useful guidance for people looking for a translator. Derek

blaming TC is hardly fair or justified... the ones to blame are the 25 or 53 or 82 so-called "professional" translators who reply to and accept 2/3/4/5 US cent offers (even 7 is really too low for EU countries...). After all TC is meant as a site for "professional translators" and isn't intended to be a babysitter for anybody: we're supposed to be grownups, fully empowered, responsible for ourselves, with a sharp and discerning mind and knowledgeable about our profession. If not, well... we'd also be wannabes slaving at 2 cents... and deserving no more.

df

PS: thank you, Laurent C., for the reality check... (and your list doesn't even include the numerous forum threads where this has been discussed over and over again, some with links to other articles elsewhere)

Originally written by dominique f. on September 13, 2009 11:38 PM the ones to blame are the 25 or 53 or 82 so-called "professional" translators who reply to and accept 2/3/4/5 US cent offers. After all TC is meant as a site for "professional translators"

Dominique,

This site has almost 98,000 registered users. You surely don't think there can be 98,000 people meeting your desired professional profile hanging out in the virtual world, do you?

 ...what do we do about good translators which set a low price by themselves due to  "very well know reasons"

since there is no law to protect translators from fraud of other translators accepting too low prices, it's a standard anyone can break at any given time with no legal consequences what so ever. In fact we even shouldn't have this conversation.  It shouldn't have been an issue. Is there such a thing like "translator's social protection"? If there are no prices stipulated in a law for translations, then too low is too high and too high is too low, total relativity ... (and i am not mentioning certified translations) There are also countries where teachers have been doing translations for the last 20 years while translators are not legally protected in any way.

That's so bad that it almost becomes funny.

These agencies pay garbage and probably also deliver garbage... so if you work for that kind of rates... I don't know...I just can say: Don't do it!

(Maybe there is no such thing like the RIGHT TOPIC !? for "best-low rates" ) I think a translator from Romania would be over-pleased with 4 euros, in fact they are used to be paid 3 euro per page ), way to go.  1 extra euro. ) (some do not charge double for translation from foreign language into foreign language because it is "easier" and the client will be happy)  Who are these people? Could we ever get to know them? Could we find out who those 25 bidders are? I have a suggestion: let's bid one page of low-rates translation just to see who are those who respond to the " best low rates" after all. Who are they? Don't they have names. Who are these colleagues ( In fact Romania is full of such .... low rates translators everywhere and translators are afraid not to loose customers or to get into conflict with the intermediary-translation company which provides work)...lets see who these people are ("the low-best-rates colleagues"), I'm sure they will be very angry if they find out !! How could I say such things after all.....

There are too many people who want to make a living translating. It's called oversupply. It's like if all of a sudden all the car drivers of the world decided to make money out of driving and started flooding the Web with their requests for passengers. There should be no more than 2-3 freelancers available for each job at any time.

 Something is wrong with the "world" ?

"let's hope they don't see the sky over their heads", i wish this happened a long time ago, but "they have bills to pay" and ... it's for sure clients will go to them, irrespective of the fact that they see the sky above  or not. This lesson is not yet very well  learned. Besides they are a very tasty meal for trading companies (and the perfect choice). The trading company earns at least the same as the translator ?!  What is the response of professional translators? Is there no professional protection as to the number of practicing translators, as to the specific countries, since foreign languages have certain influence including upon the other foreign country, not just the country of origin. Considering a translator may cover several languages and practically lower prices in 2 countries at the same time for at least a pair of any 2 given foreign languages (if he masters more than just one foreign language).

Is there any international protection ? Maybe FIT ? Since we're always bridging between at least two countries at the same time? And lowest admitted prices should be internationally established....Not just in one country?

Where is the international awareness in legal terms protecting the translators internationally?

Originally written by Laurent J Krauland on September 14, 2009 10:07 AM Oversupply is quantitative as far as I know - and in no way related to any qualitative oversupply.

Yes, but if instead of going to a taxi stand to check out for myself, I rely on 25 Internet bids to give me a ride somehere, I have  no way of knowing whose car is a non-smoking car and will not be blasting my ears with pop music along the way  ... No, I would never use the Internet other than in the way just described in Post #184732.

Where is the international awareness in legal terms protecting the translators internationally since theu provide for the link between civilisations?

Metaphorically speaking "This is a jungle" 

Someone from a translation company said: "Translation prices are   p u r e   poetry".

Hence translators are poets.

Translator's react......by giving in and accepting low standards. As there are no standards at all between any two given civilizations, we are translating for.

Originally written by Stefan Macovei on September 14, 2009 10:42 AM "This is a jungle"

Yes, corporate world tends to be a jungle...

since it is a service between civilizations

why isn't there any international legal protection for this activity?

(including prices) is there no such thing like excluding translators from this profession who practice dumping prices? Is there really no professional rule?

what are national organizations for ?

Still other people do use internet and it's translators who accept low bids in the first place.

Besides usually no translator works hand in hand with a terminologist. neither charges separately for terminology. Technically the translator is mistaken for the terminologist. Technically the translator is now and them  mistaken for the interpreter and there is no legal protection even for dumping prices.... It's total legal chaos internationally and nation wide. Excluding where education has not massively generated second hand translators. Let's just not forget those who are not translators but make good translation, either because they are talented or because they are translating just in one field and also work in that field, or those translators who are not gifted in selling their work but cause prejudice to market prices. There is no Translators Protection Act.

It is price chaos even where you would expect it to be: in certified translation, where there is no national organization and no legal guaranted price directly to the interested companies and clients

It is price chaos even where you wouldn't expect it to be: in certified translation, where there is either no national organization yet and no legally guaranted price directly to the interested companies and clients (Minimum price)

Why not solve this internationally, since it is an international service and some translators in some countries just don't understand what social protection of translators means at all because it is so difficult to think or set up a professional body at least where it is possible: in certified translations.

Why should dumping be tolerated.?

Why should the German English translator from Romania ruin the prices of the German-English translator in Germany, just because the intermediary says so in the first place?

 Yes but are the prices just paid by  the Minstry of Justice OR are they guaranteed FOR ALL CERTIFIED TRANSLATIONS ON THE MARKET, excluding the Ministry of Justice?

Originally written by Stefan Macovei on September 14, 2009 11:30 AM Why should dumping be tolerated.? Why should the German English translator from Romania ruin the prices of the German-English translator in Germany

We' ve been trying to figure out things in the "Understanding the Financial Crisis" thread for months, but apparently there is no way to get to the bottom of WHY? A last conjecture there is about the divine intervention...

You got me a little bit wrong:" it's the initative of translators associations i am talking about, but in the end it is a Law which stipulated minimum prices.

Since it is technically a Law , you cannot blame translators associations for imposing a minimum anti-dumping price which cannot be done in the first place.

So it is not about translators associations imposing a price upon translators. But about a Law. Nobody can negociate with the Law. So this is the homework for translators associations, to do everything possible internationally to pass the (International) Translators Protection Act, not about imposing themseves prices upon their members. If the price is mentioned in the Law then there is no doubt about it, is it?

Who guarantes in France "they will not be lower than EUR 0.10" 

(Ironically The Ministry of Justice cannot speak on behalf of certified translators who are on the free market. but they can benefit from a minimum guaranted price for the free market, since it is not about commercial translations. This minimum price should be  proposed by the National Certified Translators Association and is approved of by the Ministery of Justice and becomes binding for all certified translators as a guild (nationally, hopefully internationally), under the sanction of being expelled from this profession)

If the National Certified Translators Association is a ghost, or doesn't even exist allowing and guaranteeing all certified translators to co-exist in professional peace....well.... it's certified  translators who didn't do their homework in the first place.

Do you have certifed translations prices guaranteed for the free market OR JUST FOR THE MINISTRY OF JUSTICE ONLY??

Originally written by Stefan Macovei on September 14, 2009 11:42 AM So this is the homework for translators associations, to do everything possible intermationally to pass the (International) Translators Protection Act

The only problem I see with this, Stefan, is that the world would then have to pass analogous protection acts for every other service category. Even assuming that we have by then a Single World, it would consequently have to unanimously suppress the free market and we are rather far from that at this juncture.

Well....not everybody does what they should or could.

Then it is only certified translations and certified interpretations where we could do something without suppresing the free market, it is a public service after all.

How come notaries have guaranteed prices?

And they don't suppress the free market?

Besides I was talking about MINIMUM GUARANTEED PRICES

not about "fixed prices for commercial translations"....just minimum, without suppressing anything

just guaranteeing the minimum standard payment for the translator, IN ORDER TO AVOID DUMPING PRICES, How about this?

Originally written by Stefan Macovei on September 14, 2009 12:03 PM Then it is only certified translations and certified interpretations where we could do something

Absolutely! Those are regulated in Poland, but the problem is the State's misery -- the government pays very little for those services. Luckily, we also operate on the regular market where we are free to set our own prices. Generally, though, there is not much difference between certified and non-certified translation rates. They are both stagnant in Poland due to competition and CAT tools. So, back to square one...

As long as certified translators in Poland

represented by the only National Certified Translators Association

think  that there shoud be a minimum guaranteed price for certified translations on the free market

or the minimum guarantee price should be increased

they are able to immediately suggest or update such prices to the Ministry of Justice

and the Ministry of Justice approves it (just like for notaries) 

and it becomes a law.

Also minimum prices for commercial translations should also exist. 

I repeat MINIMUM GUARANTED COMMERCIAL/CERTIFIED TRANSLATION PRICES. NOT FIXED PRICES.

And There is another tricky question: maybe the association did not do a good job in calculating the professional responsibility according to percentages> There are big SUBSTANTIAL  amounts of money  written in the texts that are to become certified translations. That's the catch. Think like notaries. How did they manage? The system and documents are identical. ( almost) LEGAL THINKING IS THE SAME

IT IS NOT JUST A LINGUISTIC SERVICE.

IT IS A LEGAL SERVICE ABOVE ALL.

LET'S THINK LIKE LEGAL STUFF.

SWORN TRANSLATORS THINK LEGAL, NOT LINGUISTICALLY.

Originally written by Stefan Macovei on September 14, 2009 12:26 PM think  that there shoud be a minimum guaranteed price for certified translations on the free market

It does exist but is considered too low by many.

they are able to immediately suggest or update such prices to the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of Justice approves it

Suggest and update they do, immediately. It's that the Ministry delays any constructive response for years...

Well , as i said, maybe the certified translators association did a poor job.

The Romanian Ministry of Justice is also postponing a professional group to identify certified translators problems and perhaps even incorporating the National Certified Translators Association and right now we are talking to the Prosecutors General Office.

Maybe the Polish association should also stop "talking" to the Ministry and start talking to the Prosecutors Office.

I am sure they didn't do that.

In fact... any institution is bound by law to respond withtin 30 days.

So.... What reply did you get?

Lack of answer on behalf of the institution means.... someone should loose his job quickly, that is an employee of the Ministry of J

We also have some serious issues: like non certified commercial companies, share the profit with certified translators based on abusive agreements. What better reasons then to immediately incorporate the Certified Translators in order to be able to solve the "real problems"

real problems:

1) unauthorized personnel involved in authorized activities

2) setting up the professional body

3) minimum payment for certified translations for the so called "free market of certified translations" proportionally to the figures that are mentioned in the certified translations. that is if it is a 20 milion euro contract -  to be able to legally cash a certain minumim percentage, just like notaries according to a "table"

4) clearly defining what the sworn interpreter does and what the certified translators doesn't, we currently share the same authorization and are paid just for one service due to improper use of the authorization

5) Drafting a general services contract just to be simply filled in, distinctly for translation, interpretation, certified translation, sworn interpretation.

6) becoming a member of the Liberal Professions Association of Romania www.uplr.ro

7) drafting the code of ethics

8) improve the official database held at present by the Ministry of Justice

9) ban non-translation specialized philologists who DO hold authorization from the Ministry of Justice by issuing a second authorization given by the professional body, in addition to the authorization from the Ministry of Justice

10) continuous professional training

11) bringing together unofficial and official translators 

12) establishing a membership fee

13) keeping a friendly relationship to the Ministry of Justice 

14) representing sworn translators

15) an active role nationwide and internationally

16) stop thinking linguistically, starting thinking legally

Originally written by Stefan Macovei on September 14, 2009 12:40 PM Maybe the Polish association should also stop "talking" to the Ministry and start talking to the Prosecutors Office.

The Prosecutor's Office is also supervised by the Minister of Justice...

... any institution is bound by law to respond withtin 30 days.

In difficult cases it's 60 days. So every 60 days there is some sort of acknowledgement of receipt of correspondence with assurances that they are pondering the issue, but the State budget makes impossible an immediate remedy... Imagine, at one point, when tax law changed, sworn  translators became subject to the payment of VAT without having at the same time the right to pass it on to their government customers who would go by the set table which contained net rates as final fees. In other words, the government would pay you EUR 18 for 300 words, but out of that, due to a sudden loophole in the new law, you would have to take out 22% to cover the VAT, so the effective rate dropped from 0.06/wd to under 0.05/wd. While the Ministry solved this problem immediately for notaries and lawyers, it took them, I dunno, a good four years to fix it for sworn translators. I don't get hung up on these issues though, because I recoup what I consider due to me from direct non-government clients...

1) in my case the prosecutor's office is related to the unauthorized persons, however we want the police or customer's protection or the prosecutors to identify them

2) the reply you get is: "we are pondering" , unfortunately THIS IS NOT A LEGAL REPLY, so you can sue the Ministry because of lack of legal answer to the matter. in fact it is an ommission to give an answer, practically it is no answer at all.

3) The VAT is not really an issue for non commercial certified translators

However I heard there might be a threshold and that notaries do pay the VAT. Things get complicated here...

to recoup what I consider due to me from direct non-government clients...is what i am talking about, we want this guaranted by law: minimum prices, much higher than the ones in court, actually similar to notaries (expressed in percentages)

 4) Last resort: Have you ever considered sueing the Ministry of Justice, since postponing and/or pondering is not a legal answer? Some employees just should be kicked out or do their job.

I'm new but I agree how various this "marketplace" is and how dumped the prices are!

I also think that it would be our (freelancers) right to require minimum standard payments.

Thank you for your concern. 

 i do not know how well certified translators are protected by law as regards non governmental clients - MEANING RECOUPING -  but i am sure there should be a SOCIAL PROTECTION BY MINIMAL PRICES expressed in percentages , just like notaries have, in fact we are the next kin of notaries.  maybe i AM NOT GOOD ENOUGH AT THINKING