We've beaten this to death: Translators should only translate into their mother tongue. Time to check how often this rule is not observed.

The question is: Do you also translate into foreign languages rather than into your mother tongue only?

Please note that for the purpose of this poll

(a) mother tongue=language of habitual use=dominant language='A' language (we've already beaten those distinctions to death elsewhere),

(b) I am interested in what you do as a rule, not in exceptions. If you routinely translate 10% of your stuff into a foreign language/foreign languages, your answer is #2. If you disagree with that practice, but it just happened this month that you exceptionally and reluctantly had to exclusively translate into a foreign language, your answer is #1.

Jacek

Are we flogging a dead horse?

In any case, my dominant language is English. I only translate into Danish under duress and ONLY if I can purchase the services of a professional Danish linguist to proofread the translation. The services of professional Danish linguists are not cheap. However, I simply cannot justify translating into Danish when I have the feeling that my work could be below par so, I must either pay $00.03 - 00.04 per source word for professional proofreading or refrain - I prefer the latter. Number 1 has my vote. 

Nanna

No, just testing the market. Ethics and principles are one thing, but the reality could be different. Music, for example, is copyrighted and people should be paying to buy it. Do they when they copy CDs or download music from the Internet?

Jacek

The memory of how non-native translators write in English is quite enough to keep me from doing that to THEIR native language(s). I think Chinese is beautiful; I don't want to pollute it with my Chinese writing!

I constantly get requests to "edit" work translated into English by Chinese speakers. Many of the agencies don't understand why I think they are taking bread from the mouths of qualified translators by doing things this way -- not to mention lengthening their own time-to-delivery and lowering quality (even if the translation is "cleaned up" in terms of the English, anyone who truly checked the English against the original Chinese as well as just fixing the English would charge far more than anyone would pay to have "editing" done, because it takes as long or longer than doing the translation from scratch the right way.

Jacek babe,

Why didn´t you also put  " I sometimes translate into a foreign language."

Terry,

You spoke about pollution of the b language. I remember when studying the Nahmad and Haywood Arabic grammar. It has exercises where you have to translate from Arabic to English and from English to Arabic. When my Arabic teacher saw my Arabic sentences a big question mark would appear over his head and he would look at me and ask me: What are you trying to say here?

John

I used to get that question mark back in college, when our Classical Chinese teacher thought it was a good idea to give us homework translating English into Classical Chinese. (Just why this seemed like a good idea, and why he kept it up after seeing the results, is unclear to me. Perhaps he was a glutton for punishment.) We always felt bad to fail him by giving him bad homework, but we just couldn't do any better.

Much later now, I seem to have progressed from the "question mark" stage into the "I know what you mean but why in the WORLD did you choose to say it this way?" stage. I think I preferred the puzzled expressions to the painful ones... at least what they couldn't understand wasn't hurting them!

Originally written by Marina Oliveira on March 20, 2006 10:20 AM ...Three years ago, when applying to colaborate with one of the major Portuguese translation companies, perhaps the biggest, I was required to do a translation into English. I didn't like it but did it...

This reminds me of last year, when my mentor, a Danish state authorized translatør asked me to translate a difficult text into Danish. I did not want to do it and what's more, I did not want to look like a fool. I was pretty certain that it would be a mess of sorts. " No, no, of course not. You can do it, your mother tongue is Danish..." he said, and in spite of my misgivings, he made me do it. The next day, he told me to stick to DA/EN translation

I can write a perfectly okay business letter in Danish. I can correspond with family and friends without skipping a beat, but that is not the same as translating an intricate English text into Danish. I also prefer reading English books since English speaks to me in ways that Danish does not.

Nanna

Because I want you to make a decision as follows: if you consider this an exception, i.e., you subscribe to the native rule and your exceptions only confirm it, no matter how many and how frequent they are, then for my purposes your answer is #1. If, on the other hand, those same incidents cause no problems in your conscience and practice because, for example, you live in a country where it is widely accepted to translate into foreign languages, then for my purposes your answer is #2. So this is about your attitude rather than the volume.

Jacek

Hello!

I alike often translate both into my mother tongue and into a foreign language. Of course one have better feeling in his native language but how can you call a translator, who doesn't have any feeling in the language he is specialised in? And he doesn't develop this skill while he only translate into his mother tongue.

Aleksander Grejner

Originally written by anthony baldwin on March 20, 2006 10:59 AM I do translate into both Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese, although English is my native tongue (being American, as I am). BUT, I speak Portuguese daily at home with my wife, and have been speaking Spanish for most of my life, as well. Although I studied French to the graduate level (15 years ago), I do NOT translate into French, because I rarely use it, except in translation work, unlike the other two that I habitually speak on a daily basis. I also routinely read literature, news, magazines, etc., in my two second languages. (I consider French a third). My wife (http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/TranslatorProfile.asp?LinguistID=38290) not only speaks Brazilia Portuguese natively, but was a certified teacher of Portuguese when she lived in Brazil.  She often proofreads my translations into that tongue, when confidentiality measure do not restrict me from sharing the work with her. I spoke Spanish long before I met her, and much of my family is hispanic (by marriage, the rest of us are as caucasian as Frosty the Snowman). Tony

Anthony and Aleksander,

Welcome to the both of you!! Anthony I really like your page. I also passed the New York State Court Interpreter Spanish Test. But I ended up moving back to Spain. I am just curious, as a court interpreter, do your translations have legal validity? And I know in New York they were paying back in 2002 around 150 $ a day. What about in Conneticut?

John

Aleksander,

Your page was also interesting. But I really get lost when looking at Polish. Is there an English translation of your website as well?

John

I personally feel that I can't achieve perfection in a language other than my mother tongue. Sure, I can translate documents into good or even great English, but there's always that element of "is this really how you say it?". That rarely happens with my mother tongue.

I guess it could also depend on what type of translation it is. If it's something like a balance sheet or a questionnaire, where most of the terms are fixed, I would probably be able to do a really good job. But if it's a text where you need to be a little more creative, I feel so much more confident playing with expressions in my own language. I also think that the customer can feel more secure that the translation will be free from style or content mistakes.

And I respectfully disagree with you, Aleksander...

Originally written by Aleksander Grejner on March 20, 2006 11:36 AM Of course one have better feeling in his native language but how can you call a translator, who doesn't have any feeling in the language he is specialised in? And he doesn't develop this skill while he only translate into his mother tongue. Aleksander Grejner

I do think that you need a very good feeling of the language you translate from, but I also believe that you develop this feeling while translating from that language. After all, it takes a lot to know the exact meaning of an expression and even more to be able to translate it into another language (even if that other language is your mother tongue).

Snowy regards from Finland,

Heidi

If you write to native-standard, not just in terms of grammatical accuracy, but in terms of creativity (i.e., your ability to convey thoughts with the idiomatic flair of native speakers), I say go for it.

That said, of course, the vast majority of translators should not, simply because they do not write at or above the level of your "typical" (educated) native speaker.

In the end, I believe clients want fluid, native-quality writing. If a non-native "has the goods" (so to speak), more power to him (i.e., good for him or her).

Hi Aleksander,

Welcome to TC.

It is difficult to generalize about something as personal as our work. I have a strong desire to become better at translating into Danish - I just don't think that my clients should pay for a learning curve that may be steeper than my skills. I practice privately, and yes, it does help me to translate EN/DA and yes, I do develop my skills in this way so I certainly understand your point.

As Heidi points out, it is very possible to hone you source-language skills when you are translating a difficult text into your dominant language. Still, it takes up extra time - often in limited supply.

Nanna

"IF" you write to native standard is a great way of putting it. I agree...but the problem seems to be that the only one who can truly tell you whether or not you write to a native standard is a disinterested native speaker end-user (not the agency who just wants you to do the job for them!). Many translators seem to make the judgement for themselves, to the detriment of their product.

That's why I say that I try to remember how I feel reading translations done by non-native English speakers, to remind myself THAT is how my written Spanish or Chinese makes native speakers of those languages feel (or maybe even worse!) Even when it's "very good", there are mistakes and awkward bits -- and when it's bad, well...And because I could never sell that kind of feeling to an end-user with a straight face, I don't translate out of English, which is my native language.

I've done a few, a very few, jobs going into Chinese or Spanish, but these were done after warning the client several times that I am not a native writer of either language, and after telling them that they really would be better to find someone else. In one case, they were not able to find someone available from Chinese to Spanish at the time, and in the other case, the problem was not the Chinese output but the English input, which was supplied on audio tape and featured speakers with amazingly heavy and varied foreign accents in English. They were having trouble getting someone who could understand the tape and do the translation on an overnight basis, so after warning them repeatedly that they'd have to get a very saintly editor, I did the work into Chinese for subtitles.

Terry,

You allude to an important point: translators should know their abilities, and they should accept jobs accordingly. Indeed, this should be the case regardless of the target language.

When I receive a sample text of a potential job (something I always request), I evaluate my abilities in relation to the task at hand. If I can't deliver a high quality product, I don't accept the job (no matter what language the translation was to go into).

Someone commented that it takes longer into a foreign language; indeed, it usually does. You have to evaluate the pros and cons of accepting such (time-intensive) jobs. In any case, the translator needs to evaluate him or herself in relation to the task, i.e., Does s/he have what it takes to meet (client/self) expectations? Being able to do so (honestly) goes a long way in ensuring success (in the many ways in which this term might be defined).

In Taiwan it is common to have an academic article translated from Chinese into English, or to have one's writing in English edited by a native English speaker (well, hopefully it is a native speaker; that is not always the case!) It depends on the individual institution, and it's not always the more famous ones that do a good job in this regard.

I have no problem editing someone's English writing (as opposed to "fixing" a poor translation done by an unqualified translator, mind you!) but depending on the level of the writing, and the distance of the original article from what is considered to be a publishable academic manuscript in whatever journal they want to go for, I often recommend that they just let me translate the article for them instead. There's no telling what English expressions they've used that sound plausible but are not really what they intended to say in Chinese in the first place, so I find it easier to do a solid translation working from the Chinese original, which presumably DOES reflect what they want to say. The logic of Chinese can be quite different from what journals want, so even assuming they can write accurate English, it doesn't always "work".

I think this might be a really good idea, especially to the extent that the writer's translation abilities may not be quite as good as those of a professional translator. If the writer does it him or herself, the proofreader/editor may have less to work with (in terms of content); that is, your final product might be better if you have the article translated (especially if the linguist has an academic background/experience in the field).

Marcelo

The main problem is that, without any specific fund, young scholars - in Italy, at least - have to invest, say, a monthly salary to see their stuff translated into King James' ( or King G.W) English  - so, in most cases, they do not seek for professional help. That's why I raised the issue - it would be interesting to see how it is dealt with abroad, mainly in non-English speaking countries.

Terry, I've lived in Taiwan myself and I know (alas!) what are you talking about: anyway, I was referring to IT-EN translation where there's not such a big difference between the two languages and cultures' logic. Thus said, it's true that at present, in our humanistic faculties there's no translation/proofreading/editing service for young scholars. That's Uni, folks, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Anna Maria

Anna Maria,

I just read something about this issue. On the Net. I have been thinking and thinking, and I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw the information, but I'll keep thinking. I'll let you know.

Nanna

Anna Maria,

I've found something, albeit not the information I saw a few days ago.

This is from the University of Copenhagen and the link is to the English version. A translation centre connected with the University. You will see that researchers at the University can apply for grants to offset the price of editing, proofreading and translating a paper into, say English, and also that large volume a 100 page paper I assume, will create a better per word price. Whether these grants are available to mere students, I don't know. If it is important, I will write and inquire.  Just let me know.

Nanna 

http://www.oversaettelsescentret.dk/index_eng.html

Thanks Nanna, this was just the kind of information I was looking for. :. According to my biologist friend, this service here is offered just to researchers, PhD holders and PhD students but I assume there are exceptions. This morning I'm going to show the web page you provided to my former supervisor and we'll see if, after some brainstorming, we can work out something. Thanks again for now!

Anna Maria

From my personal experience, I would say "no", adding that the top and wisest have usually their work proofread by English native speakers.

Anna Maria

Ciao Silvia, and welcome to TC!

I think that the problem is another one: how often are Italian translators requested to translate in languages different from their mothertongue? Nobody has asked me so far to translate into English, but I have received and receive many requests for translating into Chinese, as it is still a rare language and it is hard to find qualified Chinese native speakers who translate into Italian (and, as I've said before, I usually decline these often well paid jobs). Maybe Jacek was referring to the PL-IT combination?

Enjoy the fora and keep posting

Anna Maria

That for sure, but see also Post #80948.

Thank you Silvia for the update. My information is then clearly outdated. It sometimes takes a provocative statement to get a more up-to-date picture...

Jacek

Ciao Silvia,

Welcome to TC!

John Colangelo

Anna,

I think this is normal if one of your source languages is English. However from Italian into Chinese doesn´t surprise me as it is a harder combination to find ( probably something like Spanish / Chinese). I also think it is a bit psychological. For instance, I know many more Arab translators willing to translate into English or Spanish then English and Spanish native translators willing to translate into Arabic.

John

Perfectly put.

I favour the into-native only rule, but I prefer to define native as Marcelino has done, i.e. in terms of competence. For that reason, the poll is too simplistic for my liking. By my definition, some people may have two native languages, others none. The discussions about passports, periods of residence and nationality of one's granny are just a waste of time in my opinion.

Marc

Into the native language only: If that is the first commandment of translation, the garbage-collector (with all due respect for his profession) in say, the Yorkshire Dales can translate into English too.

Don't you have to rephrase your question into : How well do you know your mother-tongue? It may be that your mother was almost illiterate, but that you have mastered a language upto a certain level.

That said, how do you define "mother-tongue" in the case of a city like Brussels? The linguistic border between Germanic and Romanic language runs straight through it. A kid can choose to go to a Dutch-speaking or French-speaking kindergarten, high school, university etc...

What to do in the case of bilingual couples such as the example mentioned-above. Ah, but I forget. The translator : the egotripper, par excellence... "I" translate, not "we" translate...

Dear All,

I see we have reached the wall I wanted to steer clear of when I said

Please note that for the purpose of this poll

(a) mother tongue=language of habitual use=dominant language='A' language (we've already beaten those distinctions to death elsewhere),

Let me rephrase that assumption then:

Please note that for the purpose of this poll

(a) mother tongue=language of habitual use=dominant language='A' language=language(s) of your highest competence=language(s) you are most proficient in (we've already beaten those distinctions to death elsewhere),

Have I missed anything to render the idea? If you claim two native languages then this poll is still about translating OUT OF those languages.

Incidentally, Marc's posting has inspired me to continue this discussion also here: http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/MegaBBS/thread-view.asp?threadid=6174&posts=1#81629

Jacek

Marc, take a pill.

All Jacek is asking is, do translators habitually work into languages that are not their "strongest". He's defined it pretty broadly in his question, and he's also said plainly that the specific definition is another question that has been debated elsewhere.

I think we all know what he means. Let's not split hairs, eh? This isn't an academic publication, it's a discussion forum.

You could just as well bellyache about how he hasn't defined what kind of text he means. After all, some texts are simpler in style and structure and can be successfully written in one's second (third...fourth..etc.) language, while others can't. I can write a pretty fair phone message in Chinese, but it doesn't make me qualified to translate into Chinese for most things.

I have the feeling that native English speakers might have a bit more sensitivity toward this issue -- not because of something genetic or inherent to English itself, but becuase of the international sociolinguistic status and position of English. With so much demand for work into English, English speakers will probably see more work done into English by non-native-speakers (in the broadest definition, I'm using that term for convenience here). I don't think that a native Swahili speaker even thinks about this question much; I would imagine there just isn't much work being done into "bad" Swahili by NNS of the language to bother them. And yes, it does bother me when I have to read something that is just plainly not native. Bothers me more when I tell an agency owner I will not "edit" ("fix", "clean up", "proof", whatever) that kind of work, and they insist on having me "look at the file" to see whether it's a "good" translation or not (without providing the original, of course). What they're saying is "well, the grammar and usage isn't TOO bad, in my opinion [usually as a non-native English speaker him- or herself])."

You can define "native-speakingness" in terms of professional translation however you like -- as an A-language, preferably -- but I believe people really know in their secret heart of hearts whether their written [language] is up to the standard of the writing an educated monolingual of that language.  We're not talking about the garbage man here, bless his heart; we're talking about educated people who are considered to write well. Why would you think of a standard of poor writing if we are supposed to be professionals writing for a living?

Those who "know" in the hearts but provide the service anyway fall into a few categories: they are pressed to do so because of lack of supply of others who might be better qualified; they are pressed to do so because they need the money; they do so because they feel it's fun or interesting; or they simply don't care because they can get away with it. (I'm not saying that the previous situations constitute "getting away with it"). Of course there are others who simply refuse to see that they do not write to an A-language standard, just as there are people who love the combover because, after all, they are NOT balding.

Originally written by Marc Prior on March 22, 2006 3:34 PM Perhaps, instead of asking "should... yes/no", you should ask "what standard of written language competence in the target language should be required of a translator?"

But... I didn't ask "should... yes/no."

In fact, I am just trying to get a feel for what people do, not what they should do. (Thank you, Terry, for coming to my rescue and phrasing it professionally.)

When it comes to "should" in the second part of your sentence, we all know the answer: Barring the aunt who just wants to know what the postcard says or the boss who needs the gist of a fax received, the standard of written language competence in the target language required of a translator should be very very high.

Jacek

Hm, I thought the word was "poll"...

As far as splitting hairs goes, I haven't even started. The really thorny issue is the definition of "educated". But I honestly hadn't intended to get involved in this discussion.

Marc

Point taken Jacek, but that still leaves you with terminology that is open to interpretation by those answering the poll.

Marc

Nicely put!!

Anyway.. I think it's safe to say that the question of whether or not to translate into a non-native language (or whatever we want to call it, non-mother tongue, B-language, and so on...) is a very personal one. For me, it's about that "good feeling " I get when I translate into the language I know best.

Heidi

Originally written by Marc Prior on March 22, 2006 3:34 PM Just as an example: since I live in Germany and speak (as distinct from "use", since I spend a large part of my day reading and writing English) German in most day-to-day situations, many people, particularly in the US, would automatically assume German to be my "language of habitual use", and therefore my "A" language and native language for the purpose of this discussion.

Preposterous, although knowing you (from the little I know you), I wouldn't be that surprised...

Originally written by Marc Prior on March 22, 2006 4:20 PM Point taken Jacek, but that still leaves you with terminology that is open to interpretation by those answering the poll.

The answer for everyone lies, as Terry (and others) put it, in their secret heart of hearts.

Jacek

Good!

I was just working on the many possible definitions of educated. If asked, my neighbour, a pleasant and helpful man with a grade eight education, would likely answer that he is an educated man. My former husband is also likely to answer that he is an educated man, and with a PhD from the University of Chicago, he is miles ahead of my neighbour. Still, I remember a professor in biology, who down graded one of my (under-graduate) papers because, as he said, 'I should know better than to use a made-up word'. The word: elan.

Nanna

Very interesting. I never paid attention to that when testing (orally) candidates for a school that used the following definitions:

Functionally Native Proficiency

Speaking proficiency is functionally equivalent to that of a highly articulate, well-educated native speaker and reflects the cultural standards of the country where the language is natively spoken. The individual uses the language with complete flexibility and intuition, so that speech on all levels is fully accepted by well-educated native speakers in all of its features, including breadth of vocabulary and idiom, colloquialisms, and pertinent cultural references. Pronunciation is typically consistent with that of well-educated native speakers of a nonstigmatized dialect.

The level immediately below was Advanced Professional Proficiency, Plus

Speaking proficiency is regularly superior in all respects, usually equivalent to that of a well-educated, highly articulate native speaker. Language ability does not impede the performance of any language-use task. However, the individual would not necessarily be perceived as culturally native.

Examples: The individual organizes discourse well, employing functional rhetorical speech devices, native cultural references and understanding. Effectively applies a native speaker’s social and circumstantial knowledge. However, cannot sustain that performance under all circumstances. While the individual has a wide range and control of structure, an occasional nonnative slip may occur. The individual has a sophisticated control of vocabulary and phrasing that is rarely imprecise; yet there are occasional weaknesses in idioms, colloquialisms, pronunciation, and cultural reference, or there may be occasional failure to interact in a totally native manner.

I do. Into English, German & Spanish. Usually they are diffferent certificates, agreements, letters of intent & contracts. I have even translated from German into English at client's request (he was a native German). Well whatever one might state I believe it possible.  When I translate into non-native language, I frequently type word combinations in google. I used also to work in a three-lingual mode - German, English & Russian, when working as a Translation Department Chief in Finance. My monthly non-native share is between 30 & 40 %. That's my humble contribution without any intention to commit a suicide I even teach several students with a foreign language w/o using Russian.

Hi,

I'm bilingual - English/Portuguese - and I only translate into these two languages.

I work with other source languages - French and Spanish - and experience no difficulties in understanding them but only translate into my native languages.

In my experience it's preferable and sometimes requisite to choose translators that translate only into their mother tongue, the one they grew up speaking and know naturally.

Undoubtedly, being a native speaker isn't sufficient, one has to be familiar with the jargon related to technical texts, ensuring the appropriate terminology, research, etc. This is crucial to obtain a good translation but apart from this knowledge being a native speaker means one is much more proficient in overcoming the cultural and linguistic barriers involved in the translation process.

Just my two cents.

Originally written by Valentin Berlin on March 23, 2006 4:07 PM ....if I will tell my employer in Russia, that I prefer not to translate into English he/she will have doubts about my professional skills ....

In fact, in Poland, you would not get hired in the first place if you mentioned something like that.

Jacek

I am constantly asked to translate into Danish. I always say that since English is my native and dominant language, my preference is to translate into English. That sounds professional to me. And as I have mentioned elsewhere in this thread, when pressed, I always secure the services of a professional Danish translator for proofreading, also why I charge more for EN/DA translations. According to my lights, there's a  chance that the work could be in the less than category and even if the client wouldn't know or care, I would and I do. 

Nanna 

Well, once you are hired, I would say that you should eventually start educating your clients/bosses about what the translation standards are. I don't believe that will bring about any change any time soon but one day, who knows? Another thing to explain to bosses would be that a good translator does not have to be good at consecutive interpreting. Once you are an in-house translator, the expectation is that you will be also interpreting in business meetings.

Jacek

In Ukraine the price for translations into a foreign language is 30-50% higher than price for translations into Russian or Ukrainian. Foreign customers prefer to employ Ukrainian translators mostly for translations into their native language, this tendency is very common. Even if my translators are very professional, the privilege will be given to a native speaker.

That's why I always have native speakers in my team for proof reading.

Hi Jacek,

Good question!!!  Yes, I translate in 3 languages and none is considered mine.  French is my first language (the one I used until secondary school), English is second and German is third (since 1993).  Believe me at the end of a busy day I have no idea in which language I should make utterances.

I am preparing for an Austrian certification which requires that I master German as well as the other language(s) as well.  I should also be well versed in Austrian laws as well as laws in the target contry (ies). They provide manuals about laws in these respectively.   It is expected that one translate in both directions and must pass the exam accordingly, (oral and written).  A knowledge of the jargon of both language-countries is required.  I am not interested in being a court interpreter but that´s the only way to get to use the stamp.  The Austrian certification  is issued by their court system and does not make a difference between interpreting and translating in term of passing the exams.  One must qualify for both to earn a certification, the court approved translator can also act as notar.  As I look at the qualifications I think a lawyer would come up much easier with it.  A university degree is not paramount to passing the exam though.  A recent five years work experience as a translator is good enoug and passing the exam successfully.

It´s worth my try though.  I have no big plans and even if I am not able to pass successfully I would have learned a few things.  Being busy keeps one away from ´Dummheiten´.

Why on earth would I go through all that if I am only allowed to translate only into my mother tongue which I don´t have.  I know Jacek might be interested in reading this page.  My quote is only a backup of what I have already explained.  No need for non-german readers to get disappointed.

http://www.gerichtsdolmetscher.at/deutsch/ausbildung.html

"Ubersetzen und Dolmetschen muß sowohl aus dem Deutschen in die Fremdsprache als auch aus der Fremdsprache ins Deutsche beherrscht werden.  Eine Beschränkung auf nur eine Richtung ist nicht möglich."

"Was den schriftlichen Ausdruck befrifft, ist eine einwandreeie Beherrschung des Deutschen und der Fremdsprache in Hinsicht auf Grammatik, Syntax und Orthographie ein Grunderfordernis.  Äußerste Sorgfalt, Genauigkeit und Richtigkeit der Übersetzung sind schon deshalb von größter Wichtigkeit, weil der Gerichtsdolmetscher Urkundsperson ist und in dieser Eigenschaft Übersetzungen mit einem amtlich gültigen Siegel versieht.  Bei Mängeln solcher Übersetzungen kann eine Haftungsklage drohen."

Welcome, Agnès!

The ratio of those translating out of their mother tongue, for a variety of reasons, is down from the initial 40% to 35% now in this poll, but it still means that this is a widespread practice one cannot simply invalidate.

Jacek

When I lived in Bulgaria, I used to translate into languages other than my mother tongue. But then, it is very rare to find people mastering two or more languages over there. When I came in France, I found it extremely difficult to find jobs involving translation from French into English and vice versa. People are constantly in demand of native speakers. My professors here keep reminding me that my "target" language is BULGARIAN Those are facts.

Now... I feel quite confident when I use the English language. It does not mean that I am good at it but I feel that I am capable of translating texts from one foreign into another. When I look at my grades in translation (I have been taking English-French-English translation courses at the university for four years now), I realise that they are "normal" grades, grades that any good French student could have had. My colleagues are French.... exclusively. These, too, are facts

But to answer your question... I KNOW that it IS possible to translate into a language that is not your mother tongue. But I am also aware of the fact that such people are viewed with suspicion in the profession

One last thing... a tiny detail Did you know that Joseph Conrad (who was of Polish background & Polish native speaker of course...) spoke English and French with a HORRIBLE accent... But he managed to produce some of the brightest literary jewels in the English language

I never thought about that, but considering how relatively late in life (in his twenties) he learned English, I am not surprised at all...

Jacek

So did Fryderik Chopin, despite the fact that his father was a "French native speaker" . So much for the theories about musicians learning languages more easily than ordinary people...

Anna Maria

Well, sometimes you just aren't lucky enough. In France, they have started the so called "enseignement précoce de l'anglais" programme where they teach English to kids (2/3 yrs old) and then, hopefully, their English becomes really good by their 18th year etc., etc.

I was 15/16 yrs old when I wrote my first line of English text I spoke to a native speaker when I was 19. I wasn't really sure if he'll understand. My French is recent. Five years ago, I arrived in France (21 yrs old) and did not speak a word. My French accent is intolerable (in my humble opinion)... French people seem to like it My English accent has become quite tolerable. Working in French language laboratories helps a lot!

On the whole, I find that French native speakers are slow to learn English and that Bulgarian native speakers are quick to learn English but not French! Actually, it all depends on your language pairs and probably on the group they belong to! Once I was able to get around my three language groups without trouble, all seemed fine

Those days, I use English and French much more often than I use Bulgarian. I study English in France, which means that every day I am obliged to "switch" between both and "forget" the Bulgarian language. It is a very curious experience

But this takes us very far from the initial question))))) But YES YES YES I'd love to translate Bulgarian literature into English. I also think that we refuse to develop our sensibility when we try not to translate into a foreign language. When speaking of literature, I think that it could be very difficult, if not impossible, for an Englishman (or an American) to really get into some Bulgarian poetry or fiction, grasp it and "feel" it as a native speaker would. That special feeling can be translated by a Bulgarian only. I would NEVER dare translate Yeats in Bulgarian I'd prefer to have an Irishman translate him.

It happens. A Polish friend of mine (of German father), having left Poland where he did Polish<>English translations for me, does German<>English in the United States where he lives now.

Jacek

I know two Polish girls over here - both very talented & speak very good French. So I'm not surprised! You must have very intensive foreign language classes at school there.

Oh, of course, you are right I am not giving rules here, only speaking for myself.

There are beautiful translations of Shakespeare by French translators for example... It all depends on the translator I guess, on his experience etc., etc.

Living in a country has nothing to do with one's mastery of literary vocabulary and devices. It takes more to translate fiction than simply talking to native speakers I can provide countless examples of native speakers who massacre their language...

I am sure it would Collaboration might be the best solution actually!

You know, some languages are quite neglected. In Bulgaria, there was this English lady who was very interested in history and literature. I think she did translate very well into English. Ever heard of Mercia MacDermott?

The literary output of many Slavic languages is translated in English by non-native speakers simply because of lack of native translators. Russian is somewhat an exception, of course... Has someone ever heard of Slovenian literature being translated into English? There probably are some examples but, I am sure, far from enough!

See, literary translation might be very complex and even if the translator is a native speaker, there are great dangers. My master thesis was about the European translations of Clifford D. Simak's "City". I noticed something very curious about the French translation - it had more humour in it than the original. Especially the first pages... you tend to laugh more That said, it is probably the best translation I have seen.

There are some Bible translations accomplished by natives and non-natives in both directions.  Nothing is more poetic and literary than the Bible.  Some Europeens translated it into Chinese, Moffat, i.e. and many more.  I would not pass on Tolstoi just because it´s translated by non-natives.  I would align Goethe and read both versions.

What strikes me in this discussion of translating from or into one's native language is that all of those who have supported going OUT of the native language (for whatever reason, and I'm sure there are some good reasons to do so given certain situations) are supporting this idea by talking about translations into languages that are NOT their own native languages.

I would have to guess -- based on both theoretical study and long experience -- that one is not really able to "feel" a text in the same way if one is not a native speaker of the language in question. You might be able to understand it, know what it is trying to do, appreciate the mechanisms and the similes and whatever else is in there, but you cannot truly appreciate how that text makes the monolingual native reader "feel" or react. This idea seems to be somewhat culturally bound, as I have yet to meet a native Chinese speaker (forgive me always using Chinese as my example but I spent so many years there, I have more examples of that!) who would say that he believed there was something "different" about being a native speaker of a language. And I've met quite a few who believe (and say) that their English writing is every bit as good or better (!) than that of native speakers. Of course they could have been comparing their writing to sloppy writing by a non-professional writer, but you get my point.

I could say that my translations into Chinese were as good as those of, say, the British or German students of Chinese in my class in Taiwan, but that doesn't make those translations GOOD in the same way translations into Chinese done by educated native speakers of Chinese are "good". Whether my translations into Chinese are commercially acceptable depends on the situation; whether I should or should not translate into Chinese, I think, also depends on the situation. Saying that you, as a native speaker of Swahili, translate into English as well as others who are native speakers of Eskimo, doesn't convince me as a native speaker of English that the translations into English are really readable in either case.

I once did a set of translations into English and analysis of the process of translation for some Spanish poems written by "a certain Salvadoran poet" (actually a friend of mine, but luckily my professor did not know this!). I asked my friend to give written comments on what he thought of the translations. His English was really excellent, but he commented several times that he simply could not have translated his poetry as freely and flexibly as I had (just by virtue of being a native speaker of the language). For one poem, which was rhymed in Spanish, I did two English versions: one in rhyme and one not rhymed. Most of the native English speakers (okay, it was a small sample, I was in Taiwan and there weren't too many to be found!) liked the rhymed version just fine and preferred it to the non-rhymed version because "it is more like a poem"; the author, though, didn't like it at all, even though it rhymed and matched the meter of the Spanish. (And took hours to do, I might add. No money in translating poetry!!) I thought it was an interesting look into how different native languages give people a different perspective on the same piece of writing.

Even "very good", published translations into English of Chinese literature done by non-native English speakers, for instance, usually sound a bit stilted or inflexible to me, even if they have been "grammaticalized" by a native English speaker. This is because the editor doesn't really make huge, sweeping changes, but just "cleans up" the English output so that it at least conforms to the rules of grammar and spelling. But the flexibility that makes you read a text and say, "Oh, this text feels good" is not there.

Anyway, at the end of the day, I feel that it is okay to do anything that is not illegal wherever you happen to be, as long as you have clearly told your client that you are or are not a native speaker of the target language up front. If the client chooses to pay for a translation, it is up to him what he does with it, and he is the only one who knows exactly why he wants it, so it's up to him to set the conditions, too. But if it's going to be published or represent the organization, I still say that finding a qualified native speaker of the target language is the absolute best way to go.

I think you mentioned some very interesting points here. I know for instance that I have translated on several ocassions verses from the Quran and prophetic narrations from Arabic to English on this forum and I know that my English translations reflected the spirit and meaning of the text much more than what an Arab could write. You used the word flexibility which is what I meant before when I said : 

Who would be able to translate Lord Byron into Bulgarian except an extremely well versed Bulgarian who really knows how to create with his mother toungue which he not only mastered in all its grammatical aspects for the first 20 years of his life but then read a great deal of literature in his mother tongue thus acquiring a great deal of vocabulary and expressions as well as literary references...

A native speaker has spent the first 15 years of his or her life instinctively mastering the essential character of the language that a foreign learner may master depending on their age and intelligence but rarely do. Then they are spending the next 10 years at least mastering their language even more as they are reading everything in their native language from ancient to modern literature to satire...It is a long process. I mean maybe you will not translate Yeats into Bulgarian but there are Bulgarians who know more English and Bulgarian than you do...

For example, Alan Deyermond is an English hispanist. No one would be more qualified to translate Spanish literature into English than he would or Ian Gibson for that matter ( an Irish hispanist who wrote a beautiful biography of Lorca in Spanish and who has spent over the last 40 years of his life in Spain). In Arabic you have people like Dr. Timothy Winters from Cambridge or Dr. Umar Farooq from Chicago ( who despite the name is American of German descent). And I am sure Terry can think of some American experts in Chinese literature and vice versa...

Undisputably, they could

They would translate a text from their non-native language into their native language. Now, do you deny that those specialists (who can "feel"&"understand" to such an extent the non-native language) would be able to translate from their native language into that same non-native language?

How come?

For the same reason that one can understand things in one's second language that one cannot necessarily formulate. There is a "pool" of language in your head, but the "passive" pool of things that you can understand in your second language is larger than the "active" pool of things you can produce correctly (not to mention beautifully).

Yes I do,

Because even though they have read a lot they still did not master the intrinsec aspects of a language that can only be mastered at a certain age. They do not have the flexibility nor the resources to produce the same text in that B language despite understanding it. I can imagine certain people understanding Pre Islamic poetry which is extremely rich. I cannot however imagine those same people writing something near it.

I believe it is logical. Remember we are talking about B language.

Welcome Magda,

I hope you participate in many of our threads with different topics. Could you tell us a bit about yourself by filling out your profile?

John 

Originally written by Magdalena Pasnikowska on May 9, 2006 4:47 PM Where do I look for all those English linguists trained to translate from Polish, Czech, Latvian, or Hungarian, to name just a few?

At TC?

I think this all boils down to how we understand the word "should." As I once said, we all should drive 50 km per hour in Warsaw, yet to go with the flow we often have to drive 80 km p.h. and more.

Jacek

A pearl for the weekend: an University professor of "...ese" language and translation yesterday made my name to a potential client (a very big name!) who need someone to do EN-ZH translations. When I politely reminded both him and the client that I work only into my mothertongue while the job involved only my source languages, the answer was more or less "What do you mean by "source languages"? Of course you can do that, provided that you have a sufficient knowledge of English and Chinese!".

Then we have the law and corollary of translation:
1. There's no distinction between between source and target languages
2. If people refuse to translate in language different from their mothertongue this means that they have no sufficent knowledge of foreign languages.

  (I'm using this emoticon, but I'd have preferred the crying one)

Anna Maria

Now don´t you cry ... Jacek and I love ya ...

I honestly wasn´t able to understand the situation. Do you mean the teacher and client do not know the difference between target and source?

John

Hello Anna.

The problem is quite easy to resolve. Cooperate with the native spaeker of the foreign target language, if you get such orders and charge a little bit more for such translations than for translations into your mother language, that you will be able to pay this difference to a native speaker, who is making proof reading of your translation.

All problems can be resolved.

Lena

Originally written by Jacek Krankowski on May 12, 2006 7:03 AM (I love her more cos I already had two dates with her in Warsaw.)

You little devil you ... 

Yes John, that's the problem, adding that they apparently don't realize the difference of quality between the work of a good mothertongue translator and a good non-mothertongue one. I know that sometimes clients (especially direct clients) are not aware of such subtle "nuances" but I expected more from a professor of "language and translation"!

Lena: first, hi and welcome! Have lots of friends in your lovely country. I do understand your point, but it's a problem of ethics: I always ask direct clients and agencies for fair prices, but only for services I can provide. There are good EN-ZH translators around and in my case, I would need a proofreder who has an excellent knowledge of the source language (EN) and of the subject as well - in other words, such a person could actually DO the translation. Then why don't look straight for such a professional? It would save them time and money. What's more, I don't see why I should risk my reputation for a few more euros. I don't think that a serious  dentist would accept to do the job of an oculist, if you understand what I mean . 

Anna

p.s. So glad to know that someone loves me up here!

But, Anna, this is a miracle! Surely you've been told by many people that foreigners just can't master Chinese??

Seriously, you should at least be proud of your achievement, if people can be misled by your Chinese to think you could do that job. (Don't believe I've ever had that problem! )

Hi Lena,

This is one option, of course, but frankly, how would you feel if I decided to translate from English into Russian because, after all, I took Russian in college [I really did -- don't ask! -- mostly because my friends were Russian majors, not Chinese majors]. Wouldn't you feel that I should concentrate on work I was competent to do, and not take work opportunities away from you (a truly competent person to translate from English into Russian)?

Now let's assume that my Russian isn't quite 100% wonderful. (Actually, that would be quite a liberal assessment of my Russian, 99.99% of which I have forgotten!) I translate a sentence into Russian. My proofreader reads it and says, "Oh, this is not quite grammatical. I'll have to change this word, and this word, and reword this part." Unfortunately, although the sentence is now a good Russian sentence -- horror! I didn't get the meaning right in Russian, so it doesn't mean what the English original did. But my Russian proofreader, of course, doesn't know that, because if he were an English>Russian translator, why would he accept a small sum of money to "fix" my translation rather than translate himself from English for higher rates?

Oh, I know -- I'll sell my translations only to companies in the US (who don't know good Russian from bad Russian), or to people in Russia, who can fix my Russian mistakes themselves. No big deal.

Welcome to my world of Chinese>English translation. Do you have any idea how many "offers" I receive each week to "just look over" the Chinese>English work of an unqualified translator (a non-native speaker of English) at a very low rate?

It takes me as long -- or often LONGER -- to check the work of someone I cannot trust (linguistically, I mean) than to translate the document from the beginning by myself. Yet I receive only a small fraction of the pay I would receive to do the translation. Also, I am reduced to being some kind of mechanical editor, instead of a translator.

In my opinion, there are sometimes situations where a client simply cannot find a native speaker of the target language (for example, I have done consecutive interpreting between Chinese and Spanish, but that was in Taiwan where there are very, very few people who know Spanish, and even fewer who are interpreters) but I wouldn't do it if I knew there was a person who was a native in one of those languages who was available for the job. And interpreting is a little different than translation, because there is no written document for people to look at for years to come.

I feel I have an ethical duty to help the client find the best translator for the job -- even if it is not me. And I also feel I have a fraternal obligation to my fellow translators: I will try to help you with work in your combination, and you help me with work in my combination (by referring the clients to me, not by doing the work and cutting my pay when I have to devote many hours to "proofread" it.)

Well, since both the client and "il chiarissimo" professor are Italian, I guess it's a matter of national pride... ( ever heard the quote "Italy is full of good-for-nothings capable of everything"?)

Seriously, you should at least be proud of your achievement, if people can be misled by your Chinese to think you could do that job. (Don't believe I've ever had that problem! )

Well, when I received a compliment from a fool I start to think I have a problem...or that they must have taken me for someone else. But it's just me.

Exactly! Not to mention that the client I'm speaking about is a very big name and finding a good EN-ZH translator wouldn't have been a problem for them - I even suggested them to search in TC's freelancers' database but they didn't sound too enthusiastic about it.

Dear all,

I have recently been talking to a fellow translator, who claimed to translate into 8 different languages!! (In my opinion; rediculous!! or he's some kind of miracle pro)

Stick to a couple of languages, it helps to maintain your professionalism.

(But that's just my opinion, ofcourse............)

Laurens

Dear Laurens,

just what are talking here about? I can imagine a person, who knows Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Icelandic, Dutch, German (which are quite close to each other) & if you add English & Latin - so why not? To say nothing of his native language of course. Sometimes when I work simultaneously, I have to switch from German><Russian to English><Russian for these or those reasons - it depends exclusively upon clients' wishes. Once it was connected with the fact, that Russian speaking part wanted to show knowledge of German, that made the negotiation process much longer, but the client had an airplane ticket, &, I'm afraid it was quite an inappropriate time & place to give language lessons. In some other cases German speaking only persons (or English speaking only persons) joined the meeting & was just forced to do it.   Unfortunately we are not the ones who prescribe clients what to do - they are the ones who do that. Co-operation with a native speaker editor can help here a lot as it was specified earlier, if we take written translations (as far as I can see from the previous opinions). 

Dear Laurens,

just what are talking here about?  I can imagine a person, who knows Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Icelandic, Dutch, German (which are quite close to each other) & if you add English & Latin - so why not? To say nothing of his native language of course. Sometimes when I work simultaneously, I have to switch from German><Russian to English><Russian for these or those reasons - it depends exclusively upon clients' wishes. Once it was connected with the fact, that Russian speaking part wanted to show knowledge of German, that made the negotiation process much longer, but the client had an airplane ticket, &, I'm afraid it was quite an inappropriate time & place to give language lessons. In some other cases German speaking only persons (or English speaking only persons) joined the meeting & was just forced to do it.   Unfortunately we are not the ones who prescribe clients what to do - they are the ones who do that . Co-operation with a native speaker editor can help here a lot as it was specified earlier, if we take written translations (as far as I can see from the previous opinions). 

Whether translating or interpreting, there must be sufficient language competency, but I agree there is a difference.  As a German/French to English translator I would never accept a translation job into German or French since my upbringing and education was in English speaking Canada and that fixes my "native language" as English.  However, when I interpret consecutively, the nature of the job requires me to work on both language directions.  Like Sergey, I have run into the odd trilingual situation: for example a German < > English translation between engineers in Quebec ended up including French as the francophone component felt most comfortable discussing details among each other in rapid French, then summarize their ideas in English to the anglophone component, with the German component mercifully staying unilingually German.

In Terry's scenario (which I'm only getting to read now) of the proofreader/revisor, I make some exceptions.   I charge strictly by the hour.  I have revised the translation of an English < German or French < German translator who tried to translate into English, with the work needing enough corrections to the quality of English that it was not financially worth their while to repeat the experiment - it took too long to correct.  I have refused to revise some work out of hand because the translation was so poor.  However, there are one or two colleagues who are excellent translators, and I do revise their "reverse language" translation because the revision is minor and the fee does not take the greater proportion of what they receive from the end client.  Often it happens that a translator has a stead end client who unexpectedly has a need for the reverse language combination, which the translator does not want to reject.  The solution is to translate but have a revision done or (preferably?) outsource the job.

Maxi

Well, I'm sure we can all imagine a scenario where someone speaks several languages that are close to each other with enough proficiency to translate into all of them. I can imagine doing it myself, or winning 60 billion dollars on a lottery. Please don't make the mistake of believing that a person who learns Swedish can translate into Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Dutch and German without years of study -- per language. Those languages aren't that close together. Or, some of them can be, but the exceptions that prove the rules are numerous and can be very embarassing to an uncautious translator who is greedy enough to try to "wing it". In fact, when I moved to Sweden, I found that the German that I studied at uni did more to confuse than help.

Try this test: find Swede and a Norwegian, get them together and ask them what "pula" means. Which one laughs?

/G

Hiya Genie,

Well..., is the Danish word (pule), the same as "pula"?

Nanna 

I am not sure that I know what it means in either Swedish or Norwegian, and I would not have known what it means in Romanian, but I do know what it means in Danish.

Nanna

Originally written by Andreea Bostan on July 10, 2006 3:12 PM you made me courious now...lol...in romanian means "dick" but in slang...very vulgar! lol

In Denmark, it's along the same lines and not a word used in polite society, not even by Danish stewardesses .  

Nanna

In Swedish, it's slang for to play (with). As in, jag pulade med layouten men den blev inte riktigt som jag ville/I played (around) with the layout but it really wasn't like I wanted it.

I swear I had no idea about Rumanian. Yikes. I do beg your pardon. I wasn't sure about Danish, but I can imagine what it means considering what the Norwegians use it for. Well, I suppose they are playing with something, but it does seem to be veery directed play. Ahem.

Anyway kids, the moral of this story is: don't try to wing it, you might end up offering more than you can, or care to, deliver.

/G

Dear G (and everyone else),

About translating (from and) into several languages;

I didn't mean to start a very serious discussion about this, but now that we are talking about it:

It is certainly true that it is -relatively- easy to learn a language that is "close to" the one(s) you already know (e.g. your native tongue).

But translating is a whole different matter altogether ...............

-different branches have different terminology- (and as you said, requires years of study -per language-); therefore, to translate professionally into some 8 different languages is virtually impossible -or you have to be more than 20 years in this business; the colleagues I spoke to  definately weren't.

Cheers,

Laurens.

And if you translate into 8 languages over a 20 year career, how much REAL experience is that working into each of the languages? Even assuming an equal split among that languages, it's not much professional experience. Even if the person truly has a professional level command of each.

Just my US$0.02, your mileage may vary.

Laurens

Allow me to jump in here...It's not about terminology...I daresay no one can interiorize the structure of eight languages well enough to translate into them....for me that is the key point: interiorizing the structure of a language like a native is no mean feat...and since most source languages are not even interiorized to a native competency degree by many translators, it makes for a lot of messiness indeed. Terminology per se is the easy part of translation. It's understanding the underlying concepts of a given field and being able to articulate them that makes a good translator as well as having the structure. I have NEVER had a problem with "terminology". I mean, if I do physics..which I don't...figuring out the terminology is easy. However, do I understand the source language structure in which that terminology is delivered? For me, that is the main point.

Cheers

jane

Update: just got a group mail from the same guy, asking if someone is interested in the same job mentioned in the above quote (big company, translation from English into Chinese etc.).
For the record, all the recipients are Italian native speakers.

I guess my authority on the matter is ten feet under

Anna,

Would you be able to do it even if there were a few mistakes?

John

Anna, Would you be able to do it even if there were a few mistakes? John

John,

probably I would be able to provide an "understandable" text, but the Chinese audience to whom it would be targeted would immediately spot the "non-native" flavour, provoking that feeling of "uneasiness" that such text raise in an educated readership. This is not the effect a self-promotion test (introducing the a firm and its goals) is supposed to have, don't you agree?

Thus said, I don't see why asking non-mothertongue translators while there are lots of Chinese colleagues who would be able to provide top quality at probably even lower prices (yes, since a non-mothertongue translator should at least hire a native speaker to proofread the text and include his fee in the price he'd ask). To me it's a matter of ethics: I disapprove of non-mothertongue people providing low quality Italian translation and therefore wouldn't do the same, except in case of  emergencies and pro-bono work (for instance I translated school -related material  for parents of Chinese children, but that was included in my activity as a cultural mediator and, at any rate, the texts were for private use. Same goes for charity organizations that obviously have no money to hire mothertongue professionals)

Anna Maria

Hello

Well yes I do translate into foreign languages and you need to know a few other languages other than just your mother tongue.  Otherwise how can one be known or called a professional translator.  The world will seem totally closed.

You have to be careful when you translate into foreign languages because there is every possibility that you will be taken as a non native speaker.  But then, one has to make an effort because when you make the first effort you will come across a few hurdles and that is not the end of life.  You slowly move faster into the natural accent of the language and well it would seem totally different over a period of time. 

Neeraja Sridharan

Now that I am dedicating the next two years to Translation and interpreting studies ( Spanish A language/ Arabic B language/ English C language), an Egyptian teacher in the department asked me if I could teach him English. So I answered that I didn´t come back to Spain to teach English but that I would help him with his English if he helped me with my Arabic. So he agreed that we could get together once a week and that because I already read, write and speak Arabic, he would give me topics I would write about in Arabic and focus it towards transltion so that if I were approached with a request to translate into Arabic, I would be able to.

In reality, it is not a bad idea. I have translated into Arabic on several occasions but have always sent my translations to an Arabic corrector who I trust and the results have been positive. I don´t see why you or anyone from this site couldn´t do this. What is your opinion?

Hi Neeraja,

welcome to TC; may I ask you a question? If you were a client, would you prefer a top-quality product or a not-so-better-but-it-will-do one?
Sometimes people have to translate into foreign languages (because of lack of native speakers in that particular linguistic pair, request of employers or whatever else), but, when there's the possibility to choose, why "steal" jobs from more competent colleagues? Or, more egoistically, why spend time and effort and risk to lose face for a few more euro?

Anna Maria

John,

a couple of questions: from which language have you translated into Arabic? Do you think that a professional Arabic mothertongue translator (also proficient in the source) language can provide a better quality or not?

Hi Anna,

I have translated from English and Spanish into Arabic. Of course, I have asked highly qualified Arab linguists and science professors to look over my translations and I have taken into account their corrections to improve my Arabic. A professional Arabic translator should be better but in reality there are levels of professionalism. If you are talking about someone like Ouadud then I would say of course he would be able to do it better. But sometimes you may need the money and if your translation is reviewed by a corrector then there is no wrong and you are being honest with your client.

John,

I would consider this as one of the particular circumstances I mentioned in Post #97326 . About learning from a proofreader's corrections: sometimes I write presentations and essays in English and have them proofread by a mothertongue. Yes, you're right, there's lot one can learn but in that case I'm not operating as translator; in other words, as author of the original material, I'm sure of the message I want to convey to the readership while, when translating into a language which is not my own mothertongue, I would always have doubts about choosing the right terms to transmit the content of the original text in the right way.

I know there're a lot of exceptions, and there are many good reasons behind them but I'm afraid there isn't a single one in the situation I mentioned before (asking Italian native speakers to translate a text from English to Chinese). Yes, there's a reason behind it too (in a few words, the guy I spoke about is trying to establish steady contacts with this firm using translators he can "control" as links) but to me it's not a valid one .

Have a nice evening,

Anna

Hi Anna

Sorry was traveling.  Well yes you need not snatch work from a very competent colleague and also stoop to mediocre work.  That is true.  I was talking about getting to do professional work when you are much confident of presenting good work.  That is soemthing to achieve.  You have to be ambitious and I guess that is necessary to be successful. 

In context of translating very difficult material into a foreign language I guess sometimes even good non native speakers will need some help and if the help is available why not go for it?  After all there is work for everyone.

Regards

Neeraja

Hi John

That is right.  You are being honest and if there is someone to correct it there is nothing wrong.  Afterall thats how one grows.  I think more the environment like suppose you are learning German, you need to associate yourself with the language more than what is required because you need to learn the language thoroughly and there is nothing second to listening to someone speak the language.  It requires investments, but I guess nothing comes free. 

I translate from Hindi(Indian Language)<>English and from Tamil, Telugu, Kannada (South Indian Languages) into English.  Arabic is a little close to Hindi but it is not the same.  Its like spanish and German. 

Regards

Neeraja

Hi Neeraja,

no need to apologize. Everybody has a life outside the virtual world, right?

I'm afraid I've to disagree with the above statement; to me, the main prerequisite for success, at least in the translation business, is provide the best quality possible and be aware of one's own limits.

In context of translating very difficult material into a foreign language I guess sometimes even good non native speakers will need some help and if the help is available why not go for it?

Well, I have to disagree with this as well as you always need help from native speakers when translating into a foreign languages (in my previous answer to John I said that there are perfectly justifiable exceptions) and not just "sometimes". 
Also, consider that the proofreader should have a good knowledge of the original source language as well - otherwise you could easily find yourself in the situation mentioned by Terry in the first paragraph of Post #87692

Regards,

Anna

Yes!

I could probably get away with translating into Danish for, after all, it is my first mother tongue. But I have a strong sense that Danish is outside of me rather than a part of me the way English is, so when I have translated into Danish (mainly as a volunteer), I've felt uneasy, hesitant and slow. The words don't always present themselves readily and easily and I feel fumbly in a way that takes away the pleasure I normally derive from translating. As well, I must have the text proofread by a native EN/DA translator.

Aside from earning a living, my primary objective is presenting the client with a quality product. When I please the client, my chance of success - continued success - is much greater.

If I accepted the many offers to translate into Danish, I would be buried in work, but for how long? Sooner or later, a Danish client would say, "How!"* and I could kiss repeat clients goodbye. I am simply not willing to take such a chance.

Nanna

*Danish exclamation for 'wait a minute'....  

Hi Anna

You are right.  I have seen that myself.  I was talking about in a situation where the translator is very conversant with the foreign language that he/she is translating into.  But such a situation arises when the translator has acquired good command over the foreign language.

I am here in the US visiting and I am just trying to learn spanish.  It is a wonderful language.  Although I cant take a course here I am trying to speak once in a way and trying to get a feel of the language through programmes and people.  Back when I return to India I want to learn from the spanish consulate there.  So that was exactly what I was trying to tell.  But it will be more than a couple of years before even I venture to translate a few lines of conversation into Indian languages.

Greetings all.

I think it's ok to translate into a foreign language as long as the translator has an intimate grasp and knowledge of the foreign language - something attained through years of study and ideally time spent where the language is a primary one. If a translator has been tested and is "near-native" and told that he did better than many native speakers, that should give him/her the confidence to "wrestle" with a foreign, target language. I am in this category. Many times (... ProZ), I have not been able to quote because I honestly listed my mother tongue as English and just English. I get upset sometimes at some "fellow" translators. I know they have listed more than one mother tongue so they can garner more business. With a little research, I have discovered several instances where the claim to more than one mother tongue is "full of ****". 

On the other hand, I can only applaud those who really do have two mother tongues - what good fortune.

Just needed to add my two cents.

eric ...

Hi Eric

That is exactly what I was trying to say and also emphasize that it takes a very long time to reach the "near native" phase as put in by you.  Also, it requires considerable efforts toward reaching that kind of a goal.  But that is a linguists dream and he/she will do something to achieve it - translating into a foreign language.

Regards

Neeraja Sridharan

India

I have been translating more recently from my mother tongue Portuguese to English and narrowing it to a specialized field, legal.  However, after so many years immersed in the U.S. and language PT <> EN, and with more formal and practical experience with translation, I do work with the same confidence and results from English to Portuguese.

When it comes to collateral languages it is different: for example, because Portuguese and Spanish belong to the same family some translators risk to do it, thinking that they could achieve the same accuracy that an experienced native professional would.  Although Spanish has the same structure and root, the semantic is far from similar in several aspects to Portuguese and it can be deceiving.  This might be true for other languages of similar structure, but different meanings.

The rule should be that, even if your mother tongue is close to the language intended to be translated to and from, you should translate it only if (1) you are immersed in the languages target and source and their respective culture and (2) have technical knowledge in the area translated for the source and target usage - dictionaries are usually necessary, but not sufficient (necessary vs. sufficient) or (3) if you have met formal requirements based upon a certification, and are able to satisfy the aforesaid (1) and (2).

What's interesting is that the non-native speakers of English here who do translate into English tend to be far worse at English than those who refuse to do so. The confidence of the former greatly exceeds their competence.

Originally written by Anna Maria Paoluzzi on March 19, 2006 6:10 PM The main problem is that, without any specific fund, young scholars - in Italy, at least - have to invest, say, a monthly salary to see their stuff translated into King James' ( or King G.W) English  - so, in most cases, they do not seek for professional help. That's why I raised the issue - it would be interesting to see how it is dealt with abroad, mainly in non-English speaking countries.

Funds for the translation of articles being submitted for publication are available in Québec. Unfortunately, they seem to be primarily for translation from French to English. I really deplore the tendency of scholarly journals and conferences, even in non-English-speaking countries, to use English only; I think that it's bad for science. But that's a topic for another discussion.

Scott

You keep saying that, but it appears not to be true: you yourself claim to translate only into Polish.

I've seen a bit of that practice in the United States too but that's perhaps due to a greater "flexibility" of the concept of mother tongue itself.

In other words, the incompetent and the dishonest claim mother tongues that they do not in fact possess.

I have a question about China. In light of the latest reports putting the number of high quality translators there at 10%, would you say that the top Chinese translators only translate into Chinese to guarantee that top quality?

Yes. I do not trust any translator anywhere who routinely translates into a non-native language. In my experience, Chinese translators who do ZH>EN tend not to be competent at EN>ZH either.

As a rule, I refuse to translate into any language but English. I know that my writing in other languages falls short of an acceptable standard for professional translation and certainly falls far short of my superior English. Mind you, I write several languages much better than many people here who have no qualms about offering their "professional" services into English. But I know that I should not translate professionally into languages that I don't truly master.

I make exceptions only under the following circumstances:

1) I do occasionally get requests for translations of slogans into Latin. I am willing to accept these because no native Latin-speaking translators exist and because I write Latin well.

2) If the translation is truly trivial, I may be willing to do it. By trivial I mean just a few words or stock phrases that I couldn't possibly mess up. Once or twice I have translated a business card into Chinese when the only text was "Telephone:" and "Fax:" or similar. (If the card had contained a slogan, I would have said that a professional EN>ZH translator was needed.)

3) In a genuine emergency (e.g., no one can be found to translate Portuguese into Chinese), I may be willing to accept translation into another language, but only after very clearly warning the client that the work will be of poor quality (though comprehensible), that I will not enjoy doing it, that I am reluctant to accept it, and that I am not going to do it on a regular basis. I may also impose conditions, such as the hiring of a good native writer to collaborate with me on the translation or at least to revise my work. And I may simply refuse.

4) Outside my professional practice, I am often willing to help friends with short translations of no great consequence. I don't accept payment for those translations and don't present them as work of professional quality. I don't see anything wrong with translating a friend's thank-you note into another language, possibly one that I don't even know very well, just as a favour, when I'm not wearing my professional translator's hat. By the same token, I'll play the piano for friends, but I'm certainly not a professional pianist and wouldn't ever call myself one.

Scott

Those who know little english simply have no idea of how little english they know. It's a vicious circle. (The same applies to any other language, of course.)

Bertha

As a rule and principle which I uphold, but in practice it is untenable, if only for the fact that sworn translators, as discussed earlier, must translate both ways in Poland.

About Italy, I think I apologized for not being up to date, so I withdraw that generalization. Apparently, there are Italians who would never translate into a foreign language. Maybe because they do not have the same institution of sworn translator as we do.

I've seen a bit of that practice in the United States too but that's perhaps due to a greater "flexibility" of the concept of mother tongue itself. In other words, the incompetent and the dishonest claim mother tongues that they do not in fact possess.

In fact, also true of sworn translators in Denmark.

Nanna 

I wish to know exactly how anyone can be required to translate both ways. Are you required to do everyone's bidding at all hours of the day, under penalty of death? If I come to you and say "I want you to translate this document from Polish to English", are you required to drop everything and get to work? What if you feel that you can't do the work, or that it would be unprofessional for you to accept it? What if I am not willing to pay your rates? What if you already have a lot of other work? What if you're on vacation? What if I call in the middle of the night? What if you simply don't like me? I turn work down for all those reasons and more. Surely there must be conditions under which you can refuse to translate, and you should be able to manipulate them into a justification for turning down translations into English (or Italian, or whatever else you are expected to do).

Your English is really excellent—and that's not a compliment that I extend to very many people. In general, you write better than most of the native anglophones who present themselves as translators here. I haven't seen your work from Polish into English, but I expect that it is probably less acceptable than your own English writing. And that would apply a fortiori to the many people here who cheerfully translate into non-native languages that they control at a level far, far below that of your English.

You know that in New Jersey every other person "is" either Polish or Italian (third generation, that is).

Yes, and I agree that it's perfectly ridiculous.

When even on the language level such a distortion is sanctioned, this is just one step away from claiming native proficiency in English once you become naturalized in the U.S.

I don't defend people who claim to be Polish just because Great-Grandpa was born in Żelazowa Wola, and I don't defend people who claim native proficiency in English just because they have become citizens of an English-speaking country. Perhaps they can pass themselves off as proficient anglophones in Warsaw, but they will mark themselves as liars in Washington, Winchester, Wellington, or Winnipeg.

Scott

Originally written by Jacek Krankowski on December 2, 2006 4:01 PM Yes, in addition to doing it both ways, you are also required to both translate and interpret once you take the state exam to become a sworn translator.

Again, what exactly does that mean? If I call you at 3 am and ask you to translate a 9999-word Polish treatise on biochemistry into English by the end of the afternoon, you are required by law to comply?

I've witnessed situations when (Russian-born) U.S. citizens with a very heavy accent, when asked "Where are you from?," would answer "From California." "And before that?" "I told you, I am from California."

I don't object to that. I myself answer such questions "From Québec", "From Montréal", or "From Canada", although I am originally from elsewhere.

This is gracefully accepted in the United States and no one will push you at that point to confess all the truth. It would be considered violation of your privacy.

I've seen people pushed on that question—including non-white people who had lived all their lives in California.

Scott

I was aware that various states treat translation and interpreting as the same profession and also require a test in translation in both directions, but I was not aware that some of them also required translators to accept work that they did not feel competent to perform.

It seems that certification is being managed by bureaucrats who do not understand translation and interpreting. Do they even have qualified native speakers of the target language do the assessments? or do native speakers of Portuguese make pronouncements on the quality of candidates' translations into other languages?

Scott

Although there is a number of anglophones in Warsaw, I wouldn't be surprised if in Poland the graders were Polish, the assumption being that since most of teachers of foreign languages up to the high-school level are Polish, Polish translators could as well grade the candidates' tests. I am not saying that this is the practice, I hope it isn't. I would just not be suprised if it were.

Jacek

I wouldn't be a bit surprised either; in fact, I'd be amazed if it turned out that Poland had qualified native consultants mark those tests. The translation business is so full of rot at all levels that I fully expect that haphazard Poles are asked to mark tests in a wide range of languages that they don't master.

In Canada, as we have seen, people with decidedly poor English somehow get certified to translate into the language. If a mostly anglophone country can't test translators' English properly, I'd be surprised if Poland managed to do so.

Every competent ZH>EN and JA>EN translator has the experience of seeing his work "corrected" by a non-native with atrocious English but no shortage of chutzpah. As you can imagine, I don't appreciate that in the slightest. Of course, a client who has paid his bill is free to ruin my work if he wishes (and, yes, they really, really do ruin it, in ways that you wouldn't believe), but I'd rather not be confronted with the ridiculous "corrected" version, thank you very much.

Scott

Originally written by Jose Lamensdorf on December 4, 2006 12:28 AM Finally, all these sworn translators were also tested on their ability to translate and interpret into the foreign language of their choice. It's no longer the issue of a person considering him/herself able to do it. My guess is that most of those who failed the exam did so in this part. There is no public translator certification for one way only, nor for translating or interpreting alone.

I do not feel inclined to consider anyone in the US sufficiently qualified to test my Spanish and, of course, I would by no means allow anyone in Uruguay to decide on the quality of my English.

Bertha

Let's be honest:

-Most of translators world wide take this job as a joke, and translators are often seen as "assistant fluent in X foreign languages"

-If you have a look at the linguists' profile on this site, you will see that most of translators having two mother tongues are in NO way native speakers of their second language. Besides, I dare to say than more of 50% of the linguists here state that they do translate into a foreign language. By the way, less than 50% of them take part in the threads.

-Nearly everyone believes that English is an easy language to master. It is also believed that it is quite easy to master writing skills in English; but the worse is that nowadays 'simplified English' is preferred to 'native English'. In fact, I believe that in less than 30 years we will be able to speak of English and International -crappy like- 'Ingleesh'.

In most of the countries, as far as I know, in order to become a court translator and interpreter (you get both in the same package) you need to prove your skills translating a text into a foreign language. In any case -does it make it easier?!!?- it is a general text.

I did translate once into English a sworn translation. It was very expensive to my client, BUT I was his sole choice, since nobody in Canada could do that sort of translation (swornd Galician into English). I had two natives proofreading the text. And of course, the translation itself took me three times more than it would had taken to translate it into Galician. I never did it again; I hope I will never do.

Interpreting is not a different matter either. I do speak better than I write, and I live in a country with 0 non Serbian translators/interpreters. Besides, I reject most of the offers I get, since I always have in mind my A languages (Galician and Spanish) and I do not accept B > B or B > C interpretations, a sad but common practice here in Serbia...

By the way, I am a court translator and interpreter and I am free to reject a job, due to moral, professional or personal reassons- I do not know what are you all, sworn translators, talking about. In fact, I wish most of court translators of Spanish in Serbia would refuse to translate into Spanish -even to interpret into Spanish.

There are certainly people in the US who are qualified to assess translators' Spanish, and I'm confident that there are people in Uruguay who are qualified to assess translators' English. Such people will be educated native speakers with a real mastery of the language in question. They will probably have been educated in that language. It is pretty safe to say that most of them will be from a region where the language is dominant. A qualified evaluator of EN>ES translators in the US is much more likely to have grown up in Montevideo than in Council Bluffs, Iowa.

Scott

Among the 300,000,000 people currently living in the US and the over 32,000,000 in Canada, I am pretty sure there are people who can easily assess Bertha´s Spanish. I am also pretty certain that we can find someone in Montevideo or elsewhere in the Spanish speaking world who can correct her English. How many times have we come across hubieron protestas and tasas de alfabetización. And let me just add that I am not being ironic. I am really serious because such statements are not only unprofessional, they are immature and just plain silly. 

Originally written by Jacek Krankowski on December 3, 2006 4:36 PM we do not normally waive our right to practice a profession, particularly if we can satisfy our clients' needs as is the case.

I do. I have refused many a time to do a translation into Chinese even though the client insisted that my work would satisfy his needs. Part of being a professional is having the ethical detachment and responsibility to see past dollar signs and expediency.

Scott

What's interesting, Rhianon, is that the Soviet Union used to publish truly excellent English translations of all sorts of literature. I assume that they used native anglophones.

China, too, used to publish first-rate materials in English, but nowadays even much of the official English literature from China is obviously, and painfully, non-native.

Scott

... You´re right it was tazas de alfabbetización. She wrote it. And she can confess to it just like hubieron protestas.

Yes, what is wrong with tasas de alfabetización? I'm not a native speaker, but it looks correct to me, unless you're saying that it shouldn't be in the plural.

I assume that Bertha meant that people who grew up speaking English in the US and learned Spanish late in life are almost certainly not qualified to revise Spanish writing. I'd agree, and I don't want to hear a lot of whining about the extremely unusual exceptions—actual or invented—that certain people here keep using as cover for their or others' unprofessionalism.

Scott

Oh, I didn't realise that you were correcting the spelling of a specific poster. You seem to have big difficulties with punctuation in your allegedly native English, if the message quoted above and the previous one are any indication. And I can only assume that your writing in Spanish and Arabic is worse still, yet you claim to translate into all these languages. Maybe you should clean up your own act if you propose to correct others.

Scott

Actually what I am saying is that having seen Berta write hubieron protestas and tazas de alfabetización does not morally give her the right to claim omniscience in Spanish or let alone English which is not her native tongue. People can make mistakes and there is nothing wrong with it. Being humble is absolutely necessary in this profession because (and I don´t care who you are) there will always be someone better.

This is why I study and try to improve my skills. You will never see make absolutistic claims like Bertha or yourself for that matter. Just for your information I have taken translation courses into Arabic and Spanish passing them with good grades. And just as I receive praise, I also get corrected and laughed at. What do I do? Well after my face turns red and purple, I get up and go to the reference material. If it´s in Spanish, I might go to a dictionary like the María Moliner. If it´s in Arabic then I will go to /lisaanu ul-arab/. What´s wrong with not being number one? What´s wrong with starting off? Although I have been translating stuff for many years, it´s only recently that I have been able to dedicate more time to translating. And now that I have the opportunity I am learning Interpreting Techniques and Conference Interpreting. You can bitch and complain about wannabees but I bet you your life savings there is a translator out there who can translate from Chinese to English better than you just like I am sure there are people out there who can correct Berta´s Spanish and English. 

I bet you for instance that Thomas Cleary might be able to judge your work. As for Berta, I am sure there are a list of translators and interpreters at places like MIIS who could correct her Spanish and English in one shot.    

Originally written by Jose Lamensdorf on December 3, 2006 5:55 PM Though I speak rather fluently Italian, French, and Spanish - at least according to natives who say so without having any need to please me - I don't translate from these languages. I developed a house policy of not translating FROM any language I wouldn't be capable of translating INTO equally well. So I stick to English and Portuguese.

I hate to burst your bubble, but your English is certainly defective. If you write English and Portuguese "equally well", you shouldn't be translating at all.

If we had to translate only those source languages that we controlled well as target languages, there would be almost no translators. Again, most translators who claim a perfect knowledge of a non-native language simply don't understand how far off the mark their self-assessment is.

Scott

I do not explain myself and/or my Spanish to unprofessional, non Spanish native speakers, much less those who are known for their "balanced" and  "gentlemanly" behaviour.

In case anyone else would be interested to know (Elena, Scott) why I have used "hubieron" instead of "hubo", here's why: when it comes to writing informally, I write as I please. I also say "decís", "venís", "contás" instead of "dices" "vienes" "cuentas" and I do simply because it is the habit in the Rio de la Plata and people either from Montevideo or from Buenos Aires use those terms naturally and permanently.

As far as English is concerned, my husband, who is a highly -educated American, sometimes prefers and likes -for fun- to use "ain't" (in certain very especial situations, of course) and I gladly follow.

It is indeed sad to see someone here go around making a fool of himself talking nonsense and/or correcting an "s" or an "r" to a professional native speaker of any given language.

I am not for illegal immigration, I am not into salsa, and I hate cumbia...and somebody here has not yet been able to get over it. Funny, but that's what all these attempts to bother me are about. Oh, by the way, did anyone here know that I am also a stupid white and a racist? Now everyone "knows"

Bertha  

Allegedly.

Bertha

I haven't seen the context, but I do know—without being a native speaker—that the voseo (forms such as vos decís) is standard, at least in speech, in Uruguay, Argentina, and even a few places much farther afield, such as Costa Rica. It largely supplants the tuteo used in most other Spanish-speaking regions.

I didn't notice a problem with "hubieron protestas" at first, but upon reflection I did realise that it should be "hubo protestas" according to traditional grammar. Whether modern usage requires hubo is something that qualified native speakers will have to decide. I shall butt out of that discussion.

For the record, I do see a lot of errors in these fora in all sorts of languages, even by people whom I respect as translators. Some of these errors reflect carelessness, some ignorance. I conclude the latter only when a pattern emerges; otherwise I tend to be more charitable. In any event, I don't ordinarily point out specific errors in public unless asked to do so. I do denounce posters who gleefully offer services that they plainly cannot provide at a professional level.

Scott

Just FYI: MIIS is a school -my alma mater by the way- and they do not keep lists of translators and interpreters as far as I know.

Hey Couch Potato,

I think the teachers listed on the site of your alma mater can be considered a list.

 http://translate.miis.edu/faculty/index.html?catid=6

But if you want I can create one.

Nice try kiddo

Really? Well, now I know why there's so many people who speak English so awfully badly.

I've known quite a few who "thought" they knew any English. Then they came to the US on a short visit and could not even have a decent ten- second conversation at a store or at a restaurant. I guess that day they "learnt" they did not know much.

Bertha

What happened to "Typically American?"

I think English is a tough language to master, and I think, we, native speakers make mistakes. As far as I am concerned, hubieron protestas is totally incorrect, since "hay" has no plural form (at least in formal speech). And I do not see -honestly- the link with voseo. In any case, I am master of none's bussines, since as 99% of Galicians, I am unaible to use perfect tenses in Spanish- unless in a written form... and I have an awfull spelling unless being fully concentrated -what I am not in TC.

Now, if Bertha and me, who master Spanish as mother tongue, have problems with grammar, and taking into acount that we both have some formal education, let's simply imagine what a non native speaker, having to use a future of subjunctive in a legal test would do.

Así, que si fuere este el caso, aparquemos absurdas divergencias sobre profesionalismo. A fin de cuentas, preocuparnos por esta nuestra profesión buen ejemplo es de profesionalidad.

Jairo

While a non-native speaker of English can be expected to make small errors in the language, a purported native speaker who presumes to offer "professional" translation services has no excuse.

The following remarks are intended to clear up the confusion sown by someone who is trying to build himself up at the expense of a poster who makes no claims to native proficiency in English.

1) "There's so many people" is the sort of error that a non-native speaker is likely to pick up from the mouths and pens of ignorant natives, some of whom have the chutzpah to work as translators. The correct form is "there are so many people", but it is probably less common, at least in speech, than the incorrect form given above.

2) "Awfully badly" can be disputed on stylistic grounds but is perfectly correct from a grammatical point of view.

Scott

Someone once said that English is an easy language to speak badly.

As I said, I am not competent to make pronouncements on correct Spanish usage. I leave those decisions to qualified native speakers.

I have to admit that I probably would have said "hubieron protestas" myself, although if forced to think about it I would use "hubo". For what it's worth, one dictionary gives under haber "hubo or (crit) hubieron varios heridos" (several people were injured), where "(crit)" means criticised usage. Usage obviously varies, and qualified native speakers of Spanish will have to discuss the acceptability of the criticised form.

I have nothing else to say on this subject.

Scott

Originally written by Jairo Dorado Cadilla on December 5, 2006 3:06 AM I think English is a tough language to master, and I think, we, native speakers make mistakes. As far as I am concerned, hubieron protestas is totally incorrect, since "hay" has no plural form (at least in formal speech).

Of course "hubieron" is not correct! Even a primary school student knows that...But people use it and, if I feel like to, I use it too. I would never use "hubieron" on a translation, but I do enjoy using my mother tongue more freely and loosely and I even get to the point- very often, I may say, of making words up. 

The guys from the RAE don't have a clue and they have not even been once to any of the many Spanish speaking countries. However, they are the "authority" and the ones who will decide (without even getting their butts off their chairs) who can say what.

Personally, I will continue to say -and write- "hubieron" as many times as I so please. And I will continue to use as many Rio de la Plata slang terms as I can if I so wish. I find them funny, I find them useful, I find them "rich". Of course, when it comes to translations, I always behave and play "formal".

I remember something similar used to happen to a friend who lived in Johannesburgh. Among many other terms, certain English speakers there complained about the use of OK and claimed OK was not English. OK was not English? According to whom? Same story.

How many well educated Americans use "ain't" instead of "isn't"? Plenty. Why do they do so? Because they are ignorant? Don't think so.

How many Americans use "good" instead of "well"? If you ask an American "How are you doing" you will very likely get as an answer: "I am good" and it is unlikely that you will hear them say "I am fine" or "I am very well". At first, I found this very strange as my English teachers in Uruguay (British) would have never said such thing.

But then again, who decides what is right and what is wrong? I think what is right is what people use.

Bertha

I ain't got no nothing to say 'bout dat.

Nanna

When it appears in writing, it is there for effect. Rare indeed is the native speaker who would write "ain't" without being aware that it is a stigmatised form; everyone knows that. Many native speakers, however, would write "there is many" without realising that it is considered incorrect by prescriptive standards.

How many Americans use "good" instead of "well"? If you ask an American "How are you doing" you will very likely get as an answer: "I am good" and it is unlikely that you will hear them say "I am fine" or "I am very well".

I consider "I am good" in that context incorrect because it has a different meaning: 'I am good by nature', as opposed to 'I am currently in good health'. It is indeed in use in the latter sense, but not by many people whose English is held in high esteem.

Scott

I know it is a mistake, but one of those mistakes that one subconsciously feels compelled to use colloquially and informally. If I said "there are so many people" instead of "there's so many people" when talking to the waiter or the checker at the supermarket, they would think I'm nuts or, at least, odd.

I also feel "strange" when I answer "I'm fine, thanks". I know I am expected to say "I'm good, thanks" (yuck) but that would be too much and I'm afraid I will never  make the switch.

2) "Awfully badly" can be disputed on stylistic grounds but is perfectly correct from a grammatical point of view. Scott

Glad to hear that, Scott. Were it not correct, it would have been an awfully bad mistake. I remember one of my British teachers who loved answering "awfully badly" whenever he was asked how he felt when he had one of his allergy outbreaks. I also remember his  gorgeous British pronounciation.

It is surprising that an (alledged) native speaker like Colangelo who also does translations into English doesn't know "awfully badly" is grammatically correct.

Bertha

"I'm fine" and "there are many people" do not sound at all bookish or pedantic. There is no reason not to use them in everyday speech.

Scott

I have a friend, let's call him XZ, whose email address is: thisain'tXZ@.....com

I found that very funny. That's the only time I have seen anyone use  "ain't" in written form.

Bertha

H-E-R-E.

Bertha

I hadn't read Mr Colangelo's message, but his use of between is questionable, to say the least. Also, daresay should preferably be written solid in this instance. I won't waste my time correcting his punctuation and use of capital letters.

Scott

Scott,

This is an interesting article, especially when it says that the writer is aware of the form "hubo" and he even uses both forms -"hubo" and "hubieron" in the same paragraph.

This comes to prove that the use of one form of the other has little or nothing to do with "knowledge" of the Spanish grammar. This is all about use and usage.

Bertha

___________________________

http://lapenalinguistica.blogspot.com/2006/05/hubieron-hubo.html

Hubieron ~ Hubo

You seem to have misunderstood me. The phrase "equally well" is indeed quite correct English. What I meant was that your English, though good, is clearly not that of a native speaker; and if you translate equally well into English and Portuguese, your Portuguese translations presumably also fall short of native quality.

Creo que se dice solamente « hay » en el presente: « Hay cinco libros en la mesa ». Nadie no diría « Han cinco... ». Pero en el pretérito sí hay gente que dice « Hubieron cinco... ». Cierto, la norma tradicional exige « hubo ». Yo no sé si hoy día se admite también « hubieron » o no. Es cuestión para los hispanohablantes que dominan bien el idioma español literario. Los que citan de la gramática una regla de modo mecánico y absoluto, sin entenderla, ejemplifican el sentimiento de Pope: « A little learning is a dangerous thing; / Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring. »

Escot

Let´s take a look at hubo and hubieron in Google using Ms. Deffenbaugh´s sentence.

Hubieron protestas:

http://www.google.ae/search?hl=es&q=%22hubieron+protestas%22

Hubo protestas:

http://www.google.ae/search?hl=es&q=%22hubo+protestas%22

See the difference.

Tienes razón Escot. Los resultados de google son 434 para hubieron protestas. Y para hubo protestas, hay 32,600. Y como puedes comprobar si la norma tradicional exige "hubo" es por una razón de peso: la inmensa mayoría de hispanoparlantes en la planeta Tierra lo emplea.

If you don't know that an adverb can modify another adverb, you need to go back to elementary school.

Scott

Not in her sentence. After a bit of reflection you are right: Mario drives really fast. Both really and fast are adverbs but her sentence is wrong. Don´t defend her because she came to your aid against Nikita. Be objective. And I don´t think I need to go back to elementary school. I might need to open an English grammar but I have no problem with that.

Well Scott, time to go. I have a lot of work today. See you later in the playground.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/internet-grammar/adverbs/xadvb1.htm . I´m off to clase. Ciao.

Well, in that case...

I often come across words whose meaning I am not totally familiar with. I may understand the meaning in the context of the sentence, but not otherwise. So I look up the word. If that doesn't help, I cross reference DA <> EN and if all else fails, I ask for help.

Nanna

Originally written by Jose Lamensdorf on December 5, 2006 5:31 AM A woman told me she was taught to misspell a certain word ("previlegio" instead of the correct "privilegio"

Acho «privilégio», com acento agudo.

Escote

Professional translator into English and alledged English native (??) making this kind of mistake? Wow.

Bertha

Yes,

Look at all these silly mistakes. I wonder if it´s me or someone you are very friendly with in the site who uses his magic wand to protect you. It wouldn´t surprise me one bit.

John

なるべく英語で書いて下さい。他国語を分からない人もありますから。

お願いします。

さあら

Berta,

I do not think this has nothing to do with the ability of the RAE members to travel or to accept the overseas speech. Besides, there are local Academias de la Lengua in Uruguay, Argentina or Cuba.

The question is between proper usage or colloquial usage. It is accepted as a correct form to use vos instead of tú. But hubieron -mistake as much common in Latin America as in Spain- is fully incorrect, without having to blame the RAE members for this. Needless to say that I do not have better opinion of the RAE members than you do.

I wish we could write Spanish as it sounds, erasing the z/c vs. s issue. But we cannot. Let's stick then to a proper usage apart from what I fancy more. And I do not think there is nothing pedant on usage any language in a concise and precise way.

Sometimes I found extremely strange the way Mexicans and Colombias use the subjuntivo. But it is correct, though I would not use it like that.

Hay protestas

Habrá protestas

Había protestas

Habría protestas

Hubo protestas....

¿Seguirá habiendo discusiones en el TC?...

On n'est nullement obligés à parler en anglais sur ce site.

Scott

Pero todavía se cecea en España septentrional y en otros lugares.

Scott

Ni que decir tiene la microminoría que conserva la hipercorrección ll / y-. O los motivos por los que se mantiene la h o la v en castellano, de supuesto origen latino pero ni España  lleva H- (Hispania > España) ni trebol se escribe con -v- (trifolium > trebol)...

Originally written by Jairo Dorado Cadilla on December 5, 2006 3:20 PM El ceceo es la pronunciación incorrecta de z en lugar de s -es decir, lo contrario del seseo, mayoritario en el mundo castellanohablante.

Bueno, ¿cómo se llama la distinción entre «voceo» y «voseo»?

Scott