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pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff

Posted:
March 24, 2005 2:51 AM
Post #55431
Jeff Allen
Mother tongue: English
Posts: 1682
Joined: December 23, 2004
Location: France
 
pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff

I saw this poem appear on the Linguist List about 10 years ago.  I dug it up again today because of something that reminded me of it.  I couldn't find it listed in the LinguistList archives, but found it elsewhere.

In poetry form, it is an invaluable resource on English pronounciation for non-native English speakers. And native English speakers get a lot of fun reading it too.

Enjoy ......

=========================

English is Tough Stuff
----------------------

   This poem is properly titled "The Chaos", and appeared in Drop Your Foreign Accent - Engelse Uitspraakoefeningen, by G. Nolst Trenite (5th rev. ed., H. D. Tjeenk Willink & Zoon, 1929).  It can be found at:
    [...]

     [The poem "The Chaos" is an accumulation of lots of things
     that are strange about the way words are pronounced in English. Available at several web locations:

http://www.frivolity.com/teatime/Songs_and_Poems/english_is_tough_stuff.html

http://4umi.com/charivarius/chaos/
http://www.jokes2go.com/poems/7237.html?21
==================

Jeff

 


 
Posted:
March 24, 2005 3:22 AM
Post #55434—in reply to #55431
Laurent Chiacchierini
TC Master
Mother tongue: French
Posts: 5572
Joined: December 31, 2003
Location: France
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff
Great! I wish someone could come up with a similar one about French prononciation

Laurent

 
Posted:
March 24, 2005 5:54 AM
Post #55446—in reply to #55431
G. P.
Mother tongue: English
Joined: October 18, 2004
Location: Sweden
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff
Originally written by Jeff Allen on March 24, 2005 8:51 AM

I saw this poem appear on the Linguist List about 10 years ago.  I dug it up again today because of something that reminded me of it.  I couldn't find it listed in the LinguistList archives, but found it elsewhere.

In poetry form, it is an invaluable resource on English pronounciation for non-native English speakers. And native English speakers get a lot of fun reading it too.

Jeff

Well, Jeff, that was fun except for showing the painful inadequacy of my education when it comes to mythology. I guess I better get my Homer out...

/G


 
Posted:
March 24, 2005 10:34 AM
Post #55457—in reply to #55431
Lisa McGarry
Mother tongues: English, French
Posts: 486
Joined: June 25, 2003
Location: France
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff

Thanks Jeff, that was a roar...I really enjoyed reading that, its a real feast!

It really bring out the difficulties doesn't it? Laurent, so would I like to see one about French


 
Posted:
March 24, 2005 3:33 PM
Post #55484—in reply to #55431
Janus Jacquet
Mother tongue: Danish
Posts: 391
Joined: May 7, 2004
Location: Denmark
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff

That was both extremely fun and quite depressing. I was rather concerned that I had to look so many words up in a dictionary, and not just the mythological ones!

I have one little question, though. How would you native speakers pronounce the following sentence:

"Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key"

Or rather, how would you pronounce 'ay' and 'aye' respectively? Since either can be a variant spelling of the other, both can be pronounced either as 'eye' or as '[h]ey', which is of course also the point of this line. Would you pronounce it as 'eye, eye, eye, ey, ey, ee'?


 
Posted:
March 25, 2005 1:02 AM
Post #55501—in reply to #55431
Rossitsa Iordanova
Mother tongue: Bulgarian
Posts: 581
Joined: March 18, 2004
Location: Bulgaria
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff
That was fun, Jeff!

I wonder often ... how different modern English looks in comparison to its ancient roots... I wish I could "hear" how that language sounded.

Like in:

"
Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah, egsode eorlas."  (Beowulf)



 
Posted:
August 6, 2007 7:24 PM
Post #123943—in reply to #55431
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff
Beware of heard, a dreadful word,

That looks like beard and sounds like bird.

And dead--it's said like bed, not bead;

For goodness sake, don't call it deed!

Watch out for meat and great and threat.

(They rhyme with suite and straight and debt.)

A moth is not a moth in mother;
Full text: http://baetzler.de/humor/beware_spelling_traps.html
 
Posted:
August 5, 2008 3:52 AM
Post #152193—in reply to #55431
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff

The English Lesson

We'll begin with box, and the plural is boxes,
But the plural of ox should be oxen, not oxes.
Then one fowl is goose, but two are called geese,
Yet the plural of moose should never be meese.
You may find a lone mouse or a whole lot of mice,
But the plural of house is houses, not hice.

[...]

http://www.humbleapostrophe.com/english.html


 
Posted:
August 5, 2008 7:04 AM
Post #152211—in reply to #55431
Marisa Paván
Mother tongue: Spanish
Posts: 260
Joined: April 6, 2003
Location: Argentina
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff

Really funny! And it's interesting material to be used with students. Thanks!

Marisa


 
Posted:
August 7, 2008 2:54 PM
Post #152382—in reply to #55431
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff
Well this is fun! I`m afraid I might run short of bookmark space... Thanks!!!

 
Posted:
August 19, 2008 5:26 PM
Post #153570—in reply to #152193
Jeff Allen
Mother tongue: English
Posts: 1682
Joined: December 23, 2004
Location: France
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff
Originally written by Jacek Krankowski on August 5, 2008 9:52 AM

The English Lesson

You may find a lone mouse or a whole lot of mice,
[...]

http://www.humbleapostrophe.com/english.html

Well, the plural form of mouse depends on context.  I naturally say mice. When I was a trainer at Caterpillar, I chose to follow the usage of "mouses" of the key person I was training in the pilot phase for the regular cited (and expensive, and risky) project on controlled language writing and machine translation.  I did check all kinds of user manuals and online (mid 90s), yet the plural form was nowhere to be found since the computer accessory was always cited in the singular form.  I didn't feel that it was worth risking the acceptance of such an important project on a small issue of how to pronounce the plural form of the computer accessory, so I regularly said "mouses" in that environment.  And I say "mice" to my kids today.

The word "fish" is a bit more ambiguous.  There is a sign in the aquarium/museum in Chicago that refers to "fishes".  I seem to use both "fish" and "fishes" interchangeably for the plural.

Jeff


 
Posted:
August 19, 2008 5:44 PM
Post #153572—in reply to #153570
David Kallans
Mother tongue: English
Posts: 1752
Joined: April 13, 2007
Location: United States
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff

Originally written by Jeff Allen

There is a sign in the aquarium/museum in Chicago that refers to "fishes".  I seem to use both "fish" and "fishes" interchangeably for the plural.

There is a distinction between the plural forms of "fish" and "fishes."  The two sentences below have different meanings:

1.  There are three fish in this tank.
2.  There are three fishes in this tank.

Sentence No. 1 means that the number of swimming-things in the tank is three, and they may or may not be of the same species.  Sentence No. 2 means that there are three separate species of fish in the tank.


 
Posted:
August 19, 2008 5:52 PM
Post #153573—in reply to #153570
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff
Originally written by Jeff Allen on August 19, 2008 5:26 PM
The word "fish" is a bit more ambiguous. There is a sign in the aquarium/museum in Chicago that refers to "fishes". I seem to use both "fish" and "fishes" interchangeably for the plural.


Er... I say "fish" when I eat them, but "fishes" when I look at them and admire them...

 
Posted:
August 19, 2008 7:03 PM
Post #153578—in reply to #153572
Nanna Mercer
Mother tongues: English, Danish
Posts: 9029
Joined: February 12, 2005
Location: Denmark
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff
Originally written by David Kallans on August 19, 2008 11:44 PM

Originally written by Jeff Allen
There is a sign in the aquarium/museum in Chicago that refers to "fishes".  I seem to use both "fish" and "fishes" interchangeably for the plural.

1.  There are three fish in this tank.
2.  There are three fishes in this tank.

Sentence No. 1 means that the number of swimming-things in the tank is three, and they may or may not be of the same species.  Sentence No. 2 means that there are three separate species of fish in the tank.

Fascinating! I actually assumed (which goes to show you) that only fish and not fishes were plural.

There are many fishes (not fish) in the sea?  

Nanna

 


 
Posted:
August 21, 2008 6:54 AM
Post #153695—in reply to #153578
Jonathan Downie
Mother tongue: English
Posts: 845
Joined: March 9, 2008
Location: United Kingdom
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff
Originally written by Nanna Mercer on August 19, 2008 7:03 PM

Originally written by David Kallans on August 19, 2008 11:44 PM

Originally written by Jeff Allen
There is a sign in the aquarium/museum in Chicago that refers to "fishes". I seem to use both "fish" and "fishes" interchangeably for the plural.

1. There are three fish in this tank.
2. There are three fishes in this tank.

Sentence No. 1 means that the number of swimming-things in the tank is three, and they may or may not be of the same species. Sentence No. 2 means that there are three separate species of fish in the tank.

Fascinating! I actually assumed (which goes to show you) that only fish and not fishes were plural.

There are many fishes (not fish) in the sea?

Nanna

 



Nope, we say, there are plenty more fish in the sea, when someone has just been dumped by their girl/boyfriend.  However, we would say "mackeral, herring and cod are all types of fish" or "mackerel, herring and cod are all fishes."  English is weird. 

What about "sheep"?  Has anyone else heard "sheepsies" used as a diminuitive?

 
Posted:
August 21, 2008 7:16 AM
Post #153698—in reply to #153695
David Kallans
Mother tongue: English
Posts: 1752
Joined: April 13, 2007
Location: United States
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff
Originally written by Jonathan Downie

What about "sheep"?  Has anyone else heard "sheepsies" used as a diminuitive?



I've heard the diminutive "lambie," but I think I've only heard it in a children's TV show where it may have been used to fit the ryhme and meter pattern (poetic license).
 
Posted:
August 21, 2008 4:05 PM
Post #153756—in reply to #55431
Marisa Paván
Mother tongue: Spanish
Posts: 260
Joined: April 6, 2003
Location: Argentina
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff

Interesting examples of plural forms! I came across the word "monies" (as the plural form of "money") in a contract and I found it hard to identify the word at first. Then I looked it up in the dictionary and this is what I got:

drawing account

Accounting: Name of the account (in the account books of a sole-proprietorship or partnership firm) which records all monies taken out of the business by the owner or partners.

equity method

Method of accounting used by a parent firm for monies invested in the subsidiaries. The parent firm records the investment in its balance sheet at a valuation that takes into account the profits and losses of the subsidiaries since their acquisition. Also called equity accounting. See also cost method.

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Marisa


 
Posted:
August 21, 2008 4:11 PM
Post #153758—in reply to #153756
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff
Hi Marisa,

I hope that these links can help:

http://www.englishforums.com/English/MoneyMoniesFoodFoods/ccvgj/post.htm 

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=286505 

http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic6777.html

Jacek
 
 
Posted:
August 21, 2008 4:33 PM
Post #153763—in reply to #55431
Marisa Paván
Mother tongue: Spanish
Posts: 260
Joined: April 6, 2003
Location: Argentina
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff

Hi Jacek!

Thanks a lot!!! Very useful information!

Marisa

 


 
Posted:
August 21, 2008 11:21 PM
Post #153784—in reply to #153763
David Kallans
Mother tongue: English
Posts: 1752
Joined: April 13, 2007
Location: United States
 
RE: pronunciation poem: English is Tough Stuff
"Monies" is a word that I believe I have only ever seen in very formal legal documents, where it is roughly synonymous with "funds."

I expect the vast majority of English-speakers are not even aware that there is such a word.
 
Posted:
August 22, 2008 7:59 AM
Post #153828—in reply to #153695
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: English is Tough Stuff

http://crofsblogs.typepad.com/english/2005/02/fish_or_fishes.html

Canadian usage permits "beer" as a plural; American usage, as far as I know, does not.

Linguists call the line between two such usages an "isogloss" (literally, "same language"). Just as an isobar on a weather map describes a region of equal air pressure, an isogloss describes a region where most people follow a particular usage or pronunciation. In the "beer" example, the isogloss runs right along the US-Canadian boundary.

Similarly, isoglosses separate British "lorry" and North American "truck," and Californian "fender bender" and Tennessee "car smash" ....

I suspect isoglosses also exist between social classes and generations. My generation uses "said" for "said." My students use "like":

"So Crawford is like, 'We have a quiz on Monday,' and I'm like, 'Omigod, I can't be there!"


 


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