| Posted: March 24, 2005 2:51 AM | Post #55431 | |||
| Jeff Allen Mother tongue: English Posts: 1682 Joined: December 23, 2004 Location: France | I saw this poem appear on the Linguist List about 10 years ago. I dug it up again today because of something that reminded me of it. I couldn't find it listed in the LinguistList archives, but found it elsewhere. In poetry form, it is an invaluable resource on English pronounciation for non-native English speakers. And native English speakers get a lot of fun reading it too. Enjoy ...... ========================= English is Tough Stuff This poem is properly titled "The Chaos", and appeared in Drop Your Foreign Accent - Engelse Uitspraakoefeningen, by G. Nolst Trenite (5th rev. ed., H. D. Tjeenk Willink & Zoon, 1929). It can be found at: [The poem "The Chaos" is an accumulation of lots of things http://www.frivolity.com/teatime/Songs_and_Poems/english_is_tough_stuff.html http://4umi.com/charivarius/chaos/ Jeff
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| Posted: March 24, 2005 3:22 AM | Post #55434—in reply to #55431 | |||
| Laurent Chiacchierini TC Master Mother tongue: French Posts: 5572 Joined: December 31, 2003 Location: France | Great! I wish someone could come up with a similar one about French prononciation
Laurent | |||
| Posted: March 24, 2005 5:54 AM | Post #55446—in reply to #55431 | |||
| G. P. Mother tongue: English Joined: October 18, 2004 Location: Sweden |
Well, Jeff, that was fun except for showing the painful inadequacy of my education when it comes to mythology. /G | |||
| Posted: March 24, 2005 10:34 AM | Post #55457—in reply to #55431 | |||
| Lisa McGarry Mother tongues: English, French Posts: 486 Joined: June 25, 2003 Location: France | Thanks Jeff, that was a roar...I really enjoyed reading that, its a real feast! It really bring out the difficulties doesn't it? Laurent, so would I like to see one about French | |||
| Posted: March 24, 2005 3:33 PM | Post #55484—in reply to #55431 | |||
| Janus Jacquet Mother tongue: Danish Posts: 391 Joined: May 7, 2004 Location: Denmark | That was both extremely fun and quite depressing. I was rather concerned that I had to look so many words up in a dictionary, and not just the mythological ones! I have one little question, though. How would you native speakers pronounce the following sentence: "Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key" Or rather, how would you pronounce 'ay' and 'aye' respectively? Since either can be a variant spelling of the other, both can be pronounced either as 'eye' or as '[h]ey', which is of course also the point of this line. Would you pronounce it as 'eye, eye, eye, ey, ey, ee'? | |||
| Posted: March 25, 2005 1:02 AM | Post #55501—in reply to #55431 | |||
| Rossitsa Iordanova Mother tongue: Bulgarian Posts: 581 Joined: March 18, 2004 Location: Bulgaria |
That was fun, Jeff! ![]() I wonder often ... how different modern English looks in comparison to its ancient roots... I wish I could "hear" how that language sounded. Like in: "
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| Posted: August 6, 2007 7:24 PM | Post #123943—in reply to #55431 | |||
| Jacek K. TC Master Mother tongue: Polish Joined: February 18, 2003 Location: Poland | Beware of heard, a dreadful word,Full text: http://baetzler.de/humor/beware_spelling_traps.html
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| Posted: August 5, 2008 3:52 AM | Post #152193—in reply to #55431 | |||
| Jacek K. TC Master Mother tongue: Polish Joined: February 18, 2003 Location: Poland | The English LessonWe'll begin with box, and the plural is boxes, [...] http://www.humbleapostrophe.com/english.html | |||
| Posted: August 5, 2008 7:04 AM | Post #152211—in reply to #55431 | |||
| Marisa Paván Mother tongue: Spanish Posts: 260 Joined: April 6, 2003 Location: Argentina | Really funny! And it's interesting material to be used with students. Thanks! Marisa | |||
| Posted: August 7, 2008 2:54 PM | Post #152382—in reply to #55431 | |||
| Dodo Kaipdodo TC Master Mother tongue: Lithuanian Posts: 1549 Joined: August 8, 2007 Location: Lithuania | Well this is fun! I`m afraid I might run short of bookmark space... Thanks!!! | |||
| Posted: August 19, 2008 5:26 PM | Post #153570—in reply to #152193 | |||
| Jeff Allen Mother tongue: English Posts: 1682 Joined: December 23, 2004 Location: France |
Well, the plural form of mouse depends on context. I naturally say mice. When I was a trainer at Caterpillar, I chose to follow the usage of "mouses" of the key person I was training in the pilot phase for the regular cited (and expensive, and risky) project on controlled language writing and machine translation. I did check all kinds of user manuals and online (mid 90s), yet the plural form was nowhere to be found since the computer accessory was always cited in the singular form. I didn't feel that it was worth risking the acceptance of such an important project on a small issue of how to pronounce the plural form of the computer accessory, so I regularly said "mouses" in that environment. And I say "mice" to my kids today. The word "fish" is a bit more ambiguous. There is a sign in the aquarium/museum in Chicago that refers to "fishes". I seem to use both "fish" and "fishes" interchangeably for the plural. Jeff | |||
| Posted: August 19, 2008 5:44 PM | Post #153572—in reply to #153570 | |||
| David Kallans Mother tongue: English Posts: 1752 Joined: April 13, 2007 Location: United States |
There is a distinction between the plural forms of "fish" and "fishes." The two sentences below have different meanings: Sentence No. 1 means that the number of swimming-things in the tank is three, and they may or may not be of the same species. Sentence No. 2 means that there are three separate species of fish in the tank. | |||
| Posted: August 19, 2008 5:52 PM | Post #153573—in reply to #153570 | |||
| Dodo Kaipdodo TC Master Mother tongue: Lithuanian Posts: 1549 Joined: August 8, 2007 Location: Lithuania |
Er... I say "fish" when I eat them, but "fishes" when I look at them and admire them... | |||
| Posted: August 19, 2008 7:03 PM | Post #153578—in reply to #153572 | |||
| Nanna Mercer Mother tongues: English, Danish Posts: 9029 Joined: February 12, 2005 Location: Denmark |
Fascinating! I actually assumed (which goes to show you) that only fish and not fishes were plural. There are many fishes (not fish) in the sea? Nanna
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| Posted: August 21, 2008 6:54 AM | Post #153695—in reply to #153578 | |||
| Jonathan Downie Mother tongue: English Posts: 845 Joined: March 9, 2008 Location: United Kingdom |
Nope, we say, there are plenty more fish in the sea, when someone has just been dumped by their girl/boyfriend. However, we would say "mackeral, herring and cod are all types of fish" or "mackerel, herring and cod are all fishes." English is weird. What about "sheep"? Has anyone else heard "sheepsies" used as a diminuitive? | |||
| Posted: August 21, 2008 7:16 AM | Post #153698—in reply to #153695 | |||
| David Kallans Mother tongue: English Posts: 1752 Joined: April 13, 2007 Location: United States |
I've heard the diminutive "lambie," but I think I've only heard it in a children's TV show where it may have been used to fit the ryhme and meter pattern (poetic license). | |||
| Posted: August 21, 2008 4:05 PM | Post #153756—in reply to #55431 | |||
| Marisa Paván Mother tongue: Spanish Posts: 260 Joined: April 6, 2003 Location: Argentina | Interesting examples of plural forms! I came across the word "monies" (as the plural form of "money") in a contract and I found it hard to identify the word at first. Then I looked it up in the dictionary and this is what I got: drawing accountAccounting: Name of the account (in the account books of a sole-proprietorship or partnership firm) which records all monies taken out of the business by the owner or partners.equity methodMethod of accounting used by a parent firm for monies invested in the subsidiaries. The parent firm records the investment in its balance sheet at a valuation that takes into account the profits and losses of the subsidiaries since their acquisition. Also called equity accounting. See also cost method.<script type=text/JavaScript>if (document.cookie.indexOf('come_from_search=') >= 0){var dt = new Date();dt.setTime((new Date()).getTime() - 24*60*60*1000);document.cookie = 'come_from_search=nope;expires=' + dt.toGMTString() + ';path=/';document.write('Find what you were looking for?');} Marisa | |||
| Posted: August 21, 2008 4:11 PM | Post #153758—in reply to #153756 | |||
| Jacek K. TC Master Mother tongue: Polish Joined: February 18, 2003 Location: Poland |
Hi Marisa, I hope that these links can help: http://www.englishforums.com/English/MoneyMoniesFoodFoods/ccvgj/post.htm http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=286505 Jacek | |||
| Posted: August 21, 2008 4:33 PM | Post #153763—in reply to #55431 | |||
| Marisa Paván Mother tongue: Spanish Posts: 260 Joined: April 6, 2003 Location: Argentina | Hi Jacek! Thanks a lot!!! Very useful information! Marisa
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| Posted: August 21, 2008 11:21 PM | Post #153784—in reply to #153763 | |||
| David Kallans Mother tongue: English Posts: 1752 Joined: April 13, 2007 Location: United States | "Monies" is a word that I believe I have only ever seen in very formal legal documents, where it is roughly synonymous with "funds." I expect the vast majority of English-speakers are not even aware that there is such a word. | |||
| Posted: August 22, 2008 7:59 AM | Post #153828—in reply to #153695 | |||
| Jacek K. TC Master Mother tongue: Polish Joined: February 18, 2003 Location: Poland | http://crofsblogs.typepad.com/english/2005/02/fish_or_fishes.html Canadian usage permits "beer" as a plural; American usage, as far as I know, does not. Linguists call the line between two such usages an "isogloss" (literally, "same language"). Just as an isobar on a weather map describes a region of equal air pressure, an isogloss describes a region where most people follow a particular usage or pronunciation. In the "beer" example, the isogloss runs right along the US-Canadian boundary. Similarly, isoglosses separate British "lorry" and North American "truck," and Californian "fender bender" and Tennessee "car smash" .... I suspect isoglosses also exist between social classes and generations. My generation uses "said" for "said." My students use "like": "So Crawford is like, 'We have a quiz on Monday,' and I'm like, 'Omigod, I can't be there!" | |||