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Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Do you still use traditional dictionaries?
Option Votes
Yes, quite a lot  
Fifty-fifty with the Internet  
I mainly use the Internet  
Posted:
January 15, 2009 6:33 AM
Post #166972
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
Do you still use traditional dictionaries?
By "traditional" I mean published against payment, in any form, as opposed to free Internet resources. For options other than 1-3 feel free to elaborate.
From http://barbarawallraff.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/the_uncertain_future_of_dictio.php:
To me, the future of the dictionary industry doesn't look much brighter than the future of the American auto industry. To be sure, people learning a language will continue to need dictionaries. And specialized dictionaries will remain useful. The Oxford English Dictionary, for a case in point, lays out the entire history of English before our eyes; it's a cultural treasure. (If, however, it were required to make money for its owners -- as most dictionaries now are -- not even the first volume of the first edition would have made it into print.)  

In a recent thread, Jesse Sheidlower and I began discussing dictionaries and what they're good for. Jesse is editor at large at the Oxford English Dictionary, and as you might imagine, he considers dictionaries invaluable. My job includes fielding regular people's questions about language, so I'm constantly discovering new things that people wish dictionaries did, but they don't. I don't mean to suggest that lexicographers are particularly lazy or sloppy. But it seems to me that they invest a lot of hard work in things users don't need or want. ...

 
Posted:
January 15, 2009 6:42 AM
Post #166973—in reply to #166972
Nanna Mercer
Mother tongues: English, Danish
Posts: 9028
Joined: February 12, 2005
Location: Denmark
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

YES!

I really appreciate dictionaries. On a recent visit to CPH. I made the rounds of all the academic bookstores just to get two technical (legal and medical) dictionaries.

Unfortunately, without any luck

I also subscribe to an online dictionary, but there are many common mistakes in it and I don't trust it. I only use it when my memory (!) is playing tricks on me.

Nanna


 
Posted:
January 15, 2009 8:22 AM
Post #166979—in reply to #166973
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Of course, I use a paper edition of OED and other dictionaries of English, etymology, foreign words, spelling, etc., but for my professional needs for the most recent specialized terminology in my combo Internet resources are unbeatable.

Let's take the example from Post #166945. Here is what I find in my paper dictionaries:

monetize - give a fixed value as currency; put (a metal) into circulation as money (Oxford Encyclopedic English)

monetization - sale of tresury bills to banks by the UK government to finance a budgetary deficit (The Oxford Dictionary for the Business World)

monetizzare (Italian) - to realize an investment at a profit (International Dictionary of the Securities Industry)

None of the above meanings coincides with what I found on the Web...


 
Posted:
January 15, 2009 8:49 AM
Post #166984—in reply to #166979
Nanna Mercer
Mother tongues: English, Danish
Posts: 9028
Joined: February 12, 2005
Location: Denmark
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?
Originally written by Jacek Krankowski on January 15, 2009 2:22 PM

... for my professional needs for the most recent specialized terminology in my combo Internet resources are unbeatable.

Let's take the example from Post #166945. Here is what I find in my paper dictionaries:

monetize - give a fixed value as currency; put (a metal) into circulation as money (Oxford Encyclopedic English)

monetization - sale of tresury bills to banks by the UK government to finance a budgetary deficit (The Oxford Dictionary for the Business World)

monetizzare (Italian) - to realize an investment at a profit (International Dictionary of the Securities Industry)

None of the above meanings coincides with what I found on the Web...

Right!

A great way to bring home the point.  It's true, the Internet is coming into its own. In 2001, it was very difficult to find a good ordinary online DA < > EN dictionary, let alone one with specialized terminology.  Maybe it's time to exchange the cheap online one for something better.

Nanna


 
Posted:
January 15, 2009 11:45 AM
Post #166995—in reply to #166979
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

In any case, it is desirable that translators use dictionaries regardless of their form. The Financial Times has one of these silly stories that are usually titled "Lost in translation":

At issue was whether Cifa might move some functions to Russia. From his Italian vantage point, Mr Ferrari conceived of this as moving work away from Milan and therefore described the process as “delocalisation”.

In China, foreign investors describe a similar process – replacing expensive expatriate staff with Chinese employees in order to save costs – as “localisation”. What, Zoomlion executives wondered, was this “delocalisation”? The prefix “de” seemed to imply it was the opposite of localisation, and it took the two parties some time to figure out that they were talking about the same thing. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5c7c117c-e197-11dd-afa0-0000779fd2ac.html

The stupidity of such a "Lost in translation" column is borne out by the fact that any dictionary, whether paper or electronic, will contain the meaning of 'delocalize' as 'remove from the proper or usual locality' (wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn).

One logical conclusion is that this poll should contain not only a third but also a fourth option reading: 'No, I don't use any dictionaries at all.' 

Jacek


 
Posted:
January 18, 2009 2:55 PM
Post #167242—in reply to #166972
Lise Lotte Leavitt
Mother tongue: Danish
Posts: 15
Joined: March 10, 2008
Location: United States
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?
Just a question regarding dictionaries, online or not. Can anyone recommend a good Italian/Danish??
I mainly use Cd Rom or subscribed online dictionaries (Dan/Eng and vice cersa)

 
Posted:
January 18, 2009 3:10 PM
Post #167243—in reply to #166972
Maxi Schwarz-Bastami
Mother tongues: English, German
Posts: 7849
Joined: September 26, 2003
Location: Canada
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

My German / English specialized dictionaries are in paper format for the most part, while the French / English ones are electronic.  I couldn't tell you why.  It's what was available.

Maxi


 
Posted:
January 18, 2009 4:37 PM
Post #167249—in reply to #167242
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

I must admit sometimes I use online dictionaries, but I don`t really trust those. Besides, an additional boon of some traditional dictionaries and especially encyclopedias is using them does good for ones muscles. One of those owned by me weighs more than 4 kg.

 
Posted:
January 18, 2009 4:46 PM
Post #167250—in reply to #167249
Nanna Mercer
Mother tongues: English, Danish
Posts: 9028
Joined: February 12, 2005
Location: Denmark
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Dodo Kaipdodo on January 18, 2009 10:37 PM

 an additional boon of some traditional dictionaries and especially encyclopedias is using them does good for ones muscles. One of those owned by me weighs more than 4 kg.

Yes, I too have one of those. Over time, I've man-handled the hard-cover binding right off of it. No one knows how to fix this incredibly pricey dictionary so now I avoid using it.

Nanna 


 
Posted:
January 19, 2009 9:12 AM
Post #167280—in reply to #167250
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?
Originally written by Nanna Mercer on January 18, 2009 4:46 PM
No one knows how to fix this incredibly pricey dictionary so now I avoid using it.


You could try and do it yourself. You`ll need cardboard, three kinds of paper, two kinds of cotton material, good glue that makes things stick together but doesn`t soak, some velvet band (not necessary unless you want luxury), an iron, a press or a vice and lots of patience.

 
Posted:
January 28, 2009 12:53 PM
Post #168392—in reply to #166972
Nevin Ibrahim
Mother tongue: Arabic
Posts: 7
Joined: November 21, 2007
Location: Egypt
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Just a question regarding dictionaries, free online ones. Can anyone recommend a good English- Arabic??
I mainly  use online dictionaries (Arabic / Eng and vice cersa).

Thanks


 
Posted:
January 29, 2009 9:14 AM
Post #168427—in reply to #166972
Chani D
Mother tongues: French, German
Posts: 504
Joined: July 4, 2006
Location: Spain
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Yes, I am "still" using traditional dictionaries very often.

That does not mean of course that I do not use available resources on the web. A lot of them are a great help, but many of them are not to trust (in French for example, the wrong variant of a word has sometimes more ocurrences than the right one).

When I look for the translation of a specific term and find 10 possible translations in my paper dictionaries and on the web, I use to choose the proposition of a well known dictionary (just in case the client asks why I chosed this very variant).

Generally, I prefer to buy paper dictionaries than CDs: I can take them everywhere, and can use them even when there are power cuts. Also, I think that I will still be able to use paper dictionaries when the CD will not be compatible any longer with a new PC or program.


 
Posted:
January 29, 2009 1:28 PM
Post #168440—in reply to #166972
Jonathan Downie
Mother tongue: English
Posts: 845
Joined: March 9, 2008
Location: United Kingdom
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

I use a CD dictionary, online resourse (proz term search, etc) and occasionally my two paper dictionaries.


 
Posted:
January 29, 2009 1:43 PM
Post #168441—in reply to #168427
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Chani D on January 29, 2009 9:14 AM

Generally, I prefer to buy paper dictionaries than CDs: I can take them everywhere, and can use them even when there are power cuts. Also, I think that I will still be able to use paper dictionaries when the CD will not be compatible any longer with a new PC or program.

What`s more, just reading dictionaries, old ones in particular, can be fun!!!


 
Posted:
January 29, 2009 3:24 PM
Post #168446—in reply to #168392
Ann-Christine Nassar-Pateffoz
Mother tongues: Arabic, Swedish
Posts: 922
Joined: September 23, 2004
Location: France
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Nevin ibrahim on January 28, 2009 6:53 PM

Just a question regarding dictionaries, free online ones. Can anyone recommend a good English- Arabic??
I mainly  use online dictionaries (Arabic / Eng and vice cersa).

Hi Nevin,

أهلاً وسهلاً بك في مقهى المترجمين

I use Babylon when I don't use 'The One', the Hans-Wher paper dictionary, that is by far the most reliable and most accurate of them all.

Babylon is good for everyday use, when you want to have a quick synonym or explanation. It is quite accurate too, but it still won't help when you're looking for a slight difference, a nuance, etc.

Here is the link: www.babylon.com/

I think I will always need my paper dictionary no matter what.

Ann-Christine


 
Posted:
January 29, 2009 5:01 PM
Post #168450—in reply to #168446
Nevin Ibrahim
Mother tongue: Arabic
Posts: 7
Joined: November 21, 2007
Location: Egypt
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Hi Ann,

Thanks for the advice, but Babylon isn't completely free & I already used up the trial period.

Kind regards,

Nevin


 
Posted:
January 30, 2009 2:55 AM
Post #168459—in reply to #168450
Ann-Christine Nassar-Pateffoz
Mother tongues: Arabic, Swedish
Posts: 922
Joined: September 23, 2004
Location: France
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Oh yes, it is! I am talking about Babylon online dictionary, without download.

You look for a word, you choose the language, and either you have your translation into the language you choose, or you don't.

Good luck,

Ann-Christine


 
Posted:
January 31, 2009 7:28 PM
Post #168547—in reply to #168459
Nevin Ibrahim
Mother tongue: Arabic
Posts: 7
Joined: November 21, 2007
Location: Egypt
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Thanks again for the feed back.

Nevin


 
Posted:
February 3, 2009 6:04 AM
Post #168699—in reply to #168547
Kamen Nedev
TC Master
Mother tongues: Bulgarian, Spanish
Posts: 121
Joined: April 21, 2004
Location: Spain
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

My response was the third option - "I mainly use the Internet" - but I still use a number of traditional dictionaries on a daily basis. Some high-quality or highly-specialised dictionaries are simply not available on-line, or are only available as an installable CD-ROM incompatible with my OS.

Having said that, I do believe that the future of dictionaries - and of most consultation publications - is digital, whether on-line or as a standalone desktop application. It just makes sense (tm).

 

Best,

 

Kamen

 


 
Posted:
February 3, 2009 11:34 AM
Post #168728—in reply to #168699
Laurent J Krauland
TC Master
Mother tongues: German, French
Joined: August 9, 2007
Location: France
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

My answer was 50/50, paper dictionaries are good for what I call "standard" (well-established) terminology while e-dictionaries and e-resources are a lot more helpful when it comes to "new" terminology.

But, and to agree with Kamen and with reference to a thread in the French forum, I think that the future belongs to e-dictionaries.

Laurent K.


 
Posted:
February 4, 2009 7:54 AM
Post #168785—in reply to #166972
abdallah elsheikh
Mother tongue: Arabic
Posts: 2
Joined: September 4, 2007
Location: Egypt
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Hi Nevin,

I usually use on-line dictionaries, include Basem bank for information and you can find any idioms in any fields; You see it at URL: http://gdis.kacst.edu.sa/BASM.html

Kind Regards,

Abdallah Ahmed


 
Posted:
February 4, 2009 12:02 PM
Post #168800—in reply to #168728
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Laurent J Krauland on February 3, 2009 11:34 AM

I think that the future belongs to e-dictionaries.

I sinceely hope not!!!


 
Posted:
February 5, 2009 2:50 AM
Post #168846—in reply to #168800
Chani D
Mother tongues: French, German
Posts: 504
Joined: July 4, 2006
Location: Spain
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Dodo Kaipdodo on February 4, 2009 12:02 PM

Originally written by Laurent J Krauland on February 3, 2009 11:34 AM

I think that the future belongs to e-dictionaries.

I sinceely hope not!!!

I think e-books and e-dictionaries will not be able to replace entirely paper books and dictionaries so soon.

Of course, the future is often unpredictable.

 


 
Posted:
February 5, 2009 4:51 AM
Post #168859—in reply to #168846
Kamen Nedev
TC Master
Mother tongues: Bulgarian, Spanish
Posts: 121
Joined: April 21, 2004
Location: Spain
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Hi, Chani

Originally written by Chani D on February 5, 2009 2:50 AM

I think e-books and e-dictionaries will not be able to replace entirely paper books and dictionaries so soon.

Of course, the future is often unpredictable.

 

 

I think here we were only referring to dictionaries and consultation material. I don't believe books are going anywhere fast, either - but, beatiful as many dictionary editions are, the fast and complex searches we can do with electronic dictionaries is too seductive an idea not to eventually consider that option.

Although, from what I've noticed, most "traditional" dictionaries seem to be doing equally well selling their "hardware" and software versions, so who knows...

Then again, maybe, in the near future (I'm thinking of Google and simialr search services, and the semantic web in general) our whole idea of "dictionary" or "glossary" might change radically...

 

Best,

 

Kamen


 
Posted:
February 5, 2009 6:55 AM
Post #168871—in reply to #168859
Chani D
Mother tongues: French, German
Posts: 504
Joined: July 4, 2006
Location: Spain
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Kamen Nedev on February 5, 2009 4:51 AM

I think here we were only referring to dictionaries and consultation material. 

Yes, and, of course, books in general cannot be compared to dictionaries. In fact, I enjoy having Internet for complex searches, but I am so happy to have paper dictionaries these days for example, where we had a lot of power cuts due to the bad weather (I live near Málaga).


 
Posted:
February 5, 2009 7:13 AM
Post #168872—in reply to #166972
Neil Macowan
Mother tongue: English
Posts: 3
Joined: January 2, 2009
Location: Spain
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Sometimes trad dictionaries are the best option. So far I have been unable to find a reliable online Spanish-English dictionary of legal terms and usually rely on the Alcaraz-Hughes Diccionario de Terminos Juridicos when in doubt. Google and internet are good for fast searches and cross referencing but sometimes you need a more in-depth definition which to date I have usually only found in printed format..


 
Posted:
February 5, 2009 10:23 AM
Post #168886—in reply to #168872
Kamen Nedev
TC Master
Mother tongues: Bulgarian, Spanish
Posts: 121
Joined: April 21, 2004
Location: Spain
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Hi, Neil,

Originally written by Neil Macowan on February 5, 2009 7:13 AM

Sometimes trad dictionaries are the best option. So far I have been unable to find a reliable online Spanish-English dictionary of legal terms and usually rely on the Alcaraz-Hughes Diccionario de Terminos Juridicos when in doubt. Google and internet are good for fast searches and cross referencing but sometimes you need a more in-depth definition which to date I have usually only found in printed format..

 

I wouldn't expect to find anything online with the depth and quality of the major, traditional, dead-tree dictionaries - and even if one day we might me able to do this, I'm sure there will be some kind of subsciption/payment method. These things have a cost, and would never expect them to be free of charge. So, indeed, what we can find online is often of limited use, not to speak of reliability.

To some extent, I think these publishing houses are facing the same dilemma as the music business - there's this whole new world out there, the Internet, which can take them much further than they have ever been, but they still need to find the right business model for that.

Maybe that's why we get all this jungle of solutions:  single-OS, executable CD-ROM editions, limited online access to entries, or no digital version whatsoever.

I'd watch this space - I'm sure someone will come up with the right solution.

Best,

Kamen


 
Posted:
February 5, 2009 11:47 AM
Post #168893—in reply to #166972
Genevieve Shaw
Mother tongue: English
Posts: 35
Joined: July 26, 2007
Location: Spain
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

I find that for generalised texts, online dictionaries are sufficient. Failing that google searches (including image searches) are extremely helpful. However, I do not think free online dictionaries for specialised legal and financial terminology are sufficient. Actually, if anyone knows any free online dictionaries, and printed versions, for the afore-mentioned I would be grateful!

Thanks in advance,

Genevieve


 
Posted:
February 6, 2009 10:30 AM
Post #168946—in reply to #166972
Jorge Payan
TC Master
Mother tongue: Spanish
Posts: 2
Joined: September 2, 2002
Location: Colombia
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Technical translation is an art where new words appear every day; that is why I completely rely on Internet, whose specialized contents is updated constantly.

Most of the e-dictionaries I have are in CD: Ernst, Langescheidt, Pons, Oxford, Routledge, etc. Among the few paper dictionaries I own I found specially useful the "Diccionario Collazo de Informática, Computación y otras materias", a huge 3.7 kg, 12 cm thick book, given that when I work in my portable PC I can lay it on top of the closed book, and so raise the screen to the eye level, as the ergonomics recommends!

I also foresee that someday the paper dictionaries will not be useful at all, at least for my field of translation...

 

 


 
Posted:
February 6, 2009 10:33 AM
Post #168947—in reply to #168946
Genevieve Shaw
Mother tongue: English
Posts: 35
Joined: July 26, 2007
Location: Spain
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Jorge Payan on February 6, 2009 4:30 PM

Technical translation is an art where new words appear every day; that is why I completely rely on Internet, whose specialized contents is updated constantly.

 

 

I would tend to agree with you. My query, though, is how can you be sure what you find on the Internet is accurate?

Best,

Genevieve


 
Posted:
February 6, 2009 10:54 AM
Post #168948—in reply to #168947
Laurent J Krauland
TC Master
Mother tongues: German, French
Joined: August 9, 2007
Location: France
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Genevieve Shaw on February 6, 2009 4:33 PM

I would tend to agree with you. My query, though, is how can you be sure what you find on the Internet is accurate?

Best,

Genevieve

As in genealogy, the only remedy against inaccurate information is to double- or triple-check what you have at hand.  I also always consider the source, e.g. a specialised website (patents) will certainly be more accurate than a general online dictionary when it comes to (very) technical terms.  And there still are those old-fashioned paper dictionaries, even if the highly praised and high-priced "Ernst" can become a source of errors!

Laurent K.


 
Posted:
February 9, 2009 7:31 PM
Post #169118—in reply to #166972
Barbara Cochran
Mother tongue: English
Posts: 134
Joined: December 8, 2005
Location: United States

(removed) 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Hi, Everyone!

I'm of the "old school"-like an old-time academic, I love sitting at a big oak library table, surrounded by multilingual (and a good monolingual) dictionaries, general or specialized. I use these tomes much more than I use the Internet, but then I don't find myself all that much in need of either alternative, if the truth be told.

At least one of the very frequent participants in TCTerms, on this website,  incessantly berates my contributions when I indicate it is a translation I found in a dictionary. Oh, well! My clients don't seem to be complaining!

 

Have a good evening!

 

 


 
Posted:
February 10, 2009 2:29 PM
Post #169144—in reply to #169118
Jane Lamb-Ruiz
TC Master
Mother tongue: English
Joined: November 2, 2002
Location: United States
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Barbara

I object to the unfettered use of BILINGUAL dictionaries over Monolingual Ones. Your allusion is obviously to me. And I don't mind saying it again:

It is best to understand source documents in the context, their co-text and then in terms of a monolingual dictionary, should one not know a term. Then, one tries to say to oneself, oh yes, in English, that is X. Or one translates the meaning of the monolingual dictionary and sees if the answer pops up in one's head in one's own language.

Bilingual dictionaries must be used with extreme discretion.  There are many instances where you post the bilingual dictionary answer to the detriment of the co-text, context ,cultural use of a term and monolingual meaning, and your answer is incorrect.

So, of course, I use a spate of monolingual dictionaries for my combinations all the time when there are some tricky technical terms.. And occasionaly check to see what a bilingual dictionary says.
 For general language terms, I simply do not need bilingual dictionaries very often. And that is why I in TC terms I often quote the monolingual dictionary and then provide my answer. Is that clear now? 

Most translation schools advocate this procedure for translators; that is the dictionary technique they teach. If one is overusing a general bilingual dictionary, I'm afraid it means one doesn't know the language very well.  


 
Posted:
February 10, 2009 2:49 PM
Post #169146—in reply to #166972
Jane Lamb-Ruiz
TC Master
Mother tongue: English
Joined: November 2, 2002
Location: United States
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Jacek: I have this message I would be delighted to have Jesse deliver to the OED for me: I live and breathe that dictionary. It is the most marvelous resource on the English langauge.

I have one published about ten years ago, the two volume.

I had a subcription for Three Years to the OED, and this year could not afford the 300.00 dollars US it costs for the Online Subscription. I would think that after one year, the OED might consider bringing down that price. I paid them 900.000 over three years. They should have some special discount for repeat users. I mean it really is excessively expensive even though if I had the cash, I'd pay it.

So, if they don't want to go the way of the auto makers, they should consider bringing down the price to incividuals who are translators, writers, editors etc. and who do not have an institution backing them.  THey would still come out ahead, and so would "us" translators.

Your original question is therefore a bit odd for me. Because if one wants to keep up with what is going on, and their new entries, one must have an online subscription to those twenty-four - or is it twenty seven? - volumes. Right?


 
Posted:
February 10, 2009 3:15 PM
Post #169149—in reply to #166972
Maxi Schwarz-Bastami
Mother tongues: English, German
Posts: 7849
Joined: September 26, 2003
Location: Canada
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Jane,

The majority of my dictionaries are bilingual.  They are quality specialized dictionaries.  Having said that, I also know how to use them.  I do not translate material that I do not have a reasonable assurance of also understanding.  This means I also know how to weigh the value of dictionary entries, their context and so forth.  A dictionary cannot replace knowledge and experience in a field.  They should also always be used with caution and not as a unique and undisputed source. How do others feel?

Maxi


 
Posted:
February 10, 2009 8:16 PM
Post #169164—in reply to #168785
Nevin Ibrahim
Mother tongue: Arabic
Posts: 7
Joined: November 21, 2007
Location: Egypt
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Hi   Abdallah,

Thanks a lot for the feedback.

Kind regards,

Nevin


 
Posted:
March 19, 2009 4:34 AM
Post #171852—in reply to #169146
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on February 10, 2009 8:49 PM

Your original question is therefore a bit odd for me. Because if one wants to keep up with what is going on, and their new entries, one must have an online subscription to those twenty-four - or is it twenty seven? - volumes. Right?

Hi, Jane,

Here is a related example.  A question was asked the other day in TCT on how to say deuterated in Spanish. Google has hundreds of links to "cloroformo deuterado" which was the context and yet my answer was contested on the grounds that it does not exist in RAE.

As you know I only have the shorter OED, so could you do me a favor and look up "deuterated" in your OED? And once you are there, could you also look up "chrematonymy" (Post #171791)? I hope both terms are there, but should you be using an OED edition where either ot hem is not, would we authoritatively conclude that they are unacceptable in English because OED does not list them? What about all the scholarly papers using them?

Jacek

 


 
Posted:
May 5, 2009 3:11 PM
Post #175341—in reply to #168948
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

I had a very pleasant surprise today.

Polish dictionaries are incredibly cheap. I like that, I do! But I cannot understand how do the Polish manage making that so... I`ts a heluva job, making dictionaries, and dictionaries just have to be expensive!

Jacek?


 
Posted:
May 5, 2009 3:24 PM
Post #175343—in reply to #175341
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Oops! I mean, the dictionaries are cheap when bought in Poland. Those I buy in my country are as expensive as or more expensive than those published in my country...


 
Posted:
May 5, 2009 3:24 PM
Post #175344—in reply to #175341
Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov
Mother tongues: Polish, English
Posts: 2909
Joined: September 13, 2008
Location: United States
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Dodo Kaipdodo on May 5, 2009 3:11 PM

I had a very pleasant surprise today.

Polish dictionaries are incredibly cheap. I like that, I do! But I cannot understand how do the Polish manage making that so... I`ts a heluva job, making dictionaries, and dictionaries just have to be expensive!

Jacek?

Which dictionaries did you mean, Dodo. Polish-English, Polish-Lithuanian, if there is one like that. Do they have any good legal dictionaries, Polish-English. The dictionaries are cheap, because the Polish zloty is low right now, I think.


 
Posted:
May 5, 2009 3:37 PM
Post #175345—in reply to #175344
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov on May 5, 2009 3:24 PM

Which dictionaries did you mean

Various kinds, both monolinguals and bilinguals.

Do they have any good legal dictionaries, Polish-English

I didn`t look for legal, so I can`t tell you, I`m afraid...

The dictionaries are cheap, because the Polish zloty is low right now, I think.

No, I wouldn`t say so. You see, I bought some fiction, too, and I compared the prices.


 
Posted:
May 5, 2009 3:41 PM
Post #175346—in reply to #175345
Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov
Mother tongues: Polish, English
Posts: 2909
Joined: September 13, 2008
Location: United States
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

So, you went on a trip to Poland. Did you enjoy it? Any good books there, fiction? I hope you had a nice time.


 
Posted:
May 5, 2009 3:59 PM
Post #175348—in reply to #175346
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov on May 5, 2009 3:41 PM

So, you went on a trip to Poland. Did you enjoy it? Any good books there, fiction? I hope you had a nice time.

Thanks!

I did, hunting for books. I did enjoy it (the books, first and foremost) and I did not, because - drat it! - my spoken Polish seems to get worse with every visit, not better! And yes, there are books worth reading, dictionaries included. I didn`t find everything I wanted, but I hope I shall, sometime. Right now, I`m at the pile I have brought home and I don`t know which one is to be read first...

And none of the dictionaries I bought today would yeld the word I need...


 
Posted:
May 5, 2009 4:07 PM
Post #175350—in reply to #175348
Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov
Mother tongues: Polish, English
Posts: 2909
Joined: September 13, 2008
Location: United States
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Don't worry, my Polish sounds strange too when I talk to my cousine who is only ten years younger but has always lived in Poland, although I consider it absolutely perfect.

I am saying: wysylam ci e-mail i clips, a on mowi dziekuje za meile i filmiki.


 
Posted:
May 5, 2009 4:15 PM
Post #175351—in reply to #175350
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Well, doesn`t really matter, I suppose. What matters is How and Oh My How can dictionaries be cheap!?!


 
Posted:
May 5, 2009 5:02 PM
Post #175356—in reply to #166972
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Hi, Dodo,

I am glad your second book hunting trip to Poland was not bad! Liliana gave you one answer: Polish zloty is low. To the point that they are now talking about delaying Poland's entry into the euro zone, originally scheduled for 2012. But with markets you often have to say the opposite of what you are going to do to stave off speculators' attacks...

Anyway, I am looking at the best Polish<>English dictionary on the market: http://ksiegarnia.pwn.pl/?module=lista&widok=full&co=polish-english+dictionary&kategoria=73&.x=22&.y=10. Bearing in mind that the average gross monthly salary in Poland is PLN 3,300 (EUR 730) and assuming, just for the sake of comparison, that an analogous salary in Western Europe is EUR 3,300, would you say that it is, oh, so cheap for two big hard cover dictionary volumes to cost 330-380 (of whichever currency, 100-119 for soft cover) and one of them 169-189? I don't think so. I said "of whichever currency" because it is logical that with a monthly salary equal to 3,300 of whichever currency, a dictionary will cost 330-380 of that currency. I don't think PLN 330-380 is cheap for a Pole, just as I don't think EUR 330-380 is cheap for a Western European. It is only when foreigners come to Poland and for each euro they get as many as 4.5 zlotys that their purchasing power is suddenly 4.5 times higher here, considering that nominally price tags may be similar.

As for Markowski's monolingual http://alejka.pl/wielki-slownik-poprawnej-polszczyzny-pwn-cd.html, I don't know why that volume costs less than a half of the abovementioned Polish<>English dictionary (PLN 70). Maybe because it's more costly to produce 500,000 bilingual entries than 30,000 monolingual ones?


 
Posted:
May 5, 2009 5:22 PM
Post #175357—in reply to #175356
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Hi Jacek,

and thanks for the explanation. But matter is, I paid 30 zlotych for the Markowsky monolingual, 2 volumes, and even less for a 100000 entries of a bilingual (hard cover and all that)... Is that normal or have I just been lucky?


 
Posted:
May 5, 2009 5:34 PM
Post #175358—in reply to #175357
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Please, Jacek! This might be serious. Should I go back to Sejny and ask the salesgirls to check the prices anew?


 
Posted:
May 6, 2009 1:20 AM
Post #175362—in reply to #175357
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Dodo Kaipdodo on May 5, 2009 11:22 PM

I paid 30 zlotych for the Markowsky monolingual, 2 volumes

The 2008 hard cover Markowski I linked to is a single volume with the range of market prices displayed there. I don't know what edition you bought. It is also possible that Poland, referred to by a US politician as the 51st State, has indeed become like America in the meantime, where a pricelist is a pricelist and the market is the market. If you shop around, you can buy books (and other stuff) for peanuts in the States, while regular prices are higher. I was not aware that something like that could be going on in Poland... Maybe I should invest a couple hundred zlotys in a trip to Sejny and do my shopping there too? Mind you, the average salary in Sejny is far from the national average. It's half of that.


 
Posted:
May 6, 2009 4:14 AM
Post #175368—in reply to #175362
Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov
Mother tongues: Polish, English
Posts: 2909
Joined: September 13, 2008
Location: United States
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Is Poland really under such a big influence of America, apart from the military alliance? I would notice more of the European influence there, but of course I have not been to Poland for a long time, so this is based mostly on conversations and internet.


 
Posted:
May 6, 2009 4:29 AM
Post #175371—in reply to #166972
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

I don't think anything else can be inferred from what I said about Polish bookstores, Liliana.


 
Posted:
May 6, 2009 7:11 AM
Post #175392—in reply to #175362
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Jacek K. on May 6, 2009 1:20 AMThe 2008 hard cover Markowski I linked to is a single volume with the range of market prices displayed there. I don't know what edition you bought.

It is a 2006 two volume Wielki Slownik Poprawnej Polszczyzny (sorry about the diacritic! that`s why I keep nagging for More Special Characters) pod redakcją Andrzeja Markowskiego, Wydawnictwo naukowe, Warszawa.

If you shop around

I don`t. I go straight to the nearest store and buy what I need there.

Maybe I should invest a couple hundred zlotys in a trip to Sejny and do my shopping there too?

I`m not sure. Fiction prices are kinda regular there. That`s why I`m fussing about the dictionaries.

 


 
Posted:
May 6, 2009 10:11 AM
Post #175401—in reply to #175392
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Dodo Kaipdodo on May 6, 2009 1:11 PM

It is a 2006 two volume Wielki Slownik Poprawnej Polszczyzny

Well, that explains a lot. I was referring to the 2008 hard cover single volume edition with a CD. It does make sense that an older, less practical (2 vols., probably soft cover) edition with no CD will cost half of that one.


 
Posted:
May 6, 2009 4:21 PM
Post #175422—in reply to #175401
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Jacek K. on May 6, 2009 10:11 AM

 less practical

Do you mean it is not reliable? Should I have not bought it? What about the 1340 pages of hardcover "Nowy Universalny Slownik Angielsko-Polski Polsko-Angielski", published by Delta and even cheaper? I can`t seem to find any date of publishing... 

A sucker, am I?


 
Posted:
May 6, 2009 5:13 PM
Post #175426—in reply to #175422
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Dodo Kaipdodo on May 6, 2009 10:21 PM

Do you mean it is not reliable?

No, I don't. I use a 1999 edition at home and am happy with it.

What about the 1340 pages of hardcover "Nowy Universalny Slownik Angielsko-Polski Polsko-Angielski", published by Delta

I don't know it, but that doesn't mean you are a sucker. It's just that the PWN Oxford one has become the leading PL-EN dictionary these days.


 
Posted:
May 6, 2009 6:16 PM
Post #175429—in reply to #166972
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
There are dictionaries and dictionaries...

This has little to do with cheap or expensive. There are dictionaries, and not always cheap, I would never recommend. I`m going to tell you something about some Lithuanian ones, but I`m afraid something like that exists for any language.

Two kinds, at least, of dictionaries NOT to buy:

1. Dictionaries of antonyms treating you to words and - oh yeah! - antonyms, the latter being just the same words with negative prefixes. Well, this kind is easy to recognize even when the language in question is not your A.

2. Much more difficult to spot as junk (if the language is not your A) are dictionaries created by linguists with chips on their shoulders. In my country, the favourite chip is the patriotic one. In their zestful fight for pure Lithuanian, some linguists malarkey. An example, just in case:

 I don`t feel like translating this crap. Suffice it to say the distinguished linguists demand that rosette (an ornament) should be called plug socket...

I dearly wish translators would warn colleagues about such dictionaries. Any language. If the phenomenon is not exclusively Lithuanian, I mean...

 


 
Posted:
May 11, 2009 5:21 PM
Post #175889—in reply to #175426
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Jacek K. on May 6, 2009 5:13 PM

Originally written by Dodo Kaipdodo on May 6, 2009 10:21 PM

 "Nowy Universalny Slownik Angielsko-Polski Polsko-Angielski", published by Delta

I don't know it, but that doesn't mean you are a sucker.

I am, after all.Or just a lazybones, at the very least. Now that I have explored my latest treasure substantially, I see the Delta one is more than adequate for a beginner, but for a pro... alas! Yes, lots of entries there, but only the main meanings... And some other things I don`t like very much...

I asked the salesgirls for the best they had, and they chose the dictionary in accordance with my spoken Polish, I`m afraid.

Oh I crave for a thread about dictionaries NOT to buy!

But I do like the Markowski and the Wojdakowska and others!


 
Posted:
August 2, 2009 6:12 AM
Post #181357—in reply to #166972
Kamilla Bremeraunet
TC Master
Mother tongue: Norwegian
Posts: 6
Joined: November 16, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

I use both traditional dictionaries and online resources a lot. I have a CD dictionary and a way too heavy paper dictionary - which is invaluable at times.

The CD dictionary is one of best things I have ever purchased, it is so much faster for looking up words than a paper dictionary :-)


 
Posted:
August 2, 2009 6:40 AM
Post #181359—in reply to #166972
Maxi Schwarz-Bastami
Mother tongues: English, German
Posts: 7849
Joined: September 26, 2003
Location: Canada
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

I found a use for the old super-thick Harrap's that I had to buy way back around 1973.  It is just the right height to elevate my monitor to a good eye level, and instantly relieved back strain.    Apparently you can't look at the screen of flat tops at an angle.  The old dictionary with its red simulated leather and gold print gives a sophisticated air and a splash of colour.

Maxi


 
Posted:
August 8, 2009 6:58 AM
Post #181876—in reply to #166972
Nienke Brandsma
Mother tongues: Dutch, English
Posts: 1
Joined: July 29, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

 I find that free internet dictionaries are very limited and don't give much context, whereas paper dictionaries are much clearer with regards to the context in which the word is normally used. I tend to use both - normal dictionaries if I'm unsure, and online dictionaries if I'm just checking something that I think I know anyway.


 
Posted:
October 1, 2009 4:56 PM
Post #185880—in reply to #166972
Toni Ezee
Mother tongue: Italian
Posts: 2
Joined: July 18, 2009
Location: United Kingdom
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

My computer dictionary interfaces with MS word, I don't even have to type it in! but I certainly prefer to use hard copies but it is just not quick enough for translation. Very specialist sources are generally not available or reliable via the web.

Toni

 


 
Posted:
October 14, 2009 5:53 PM
Post #186856—in reply to #181359
Barbara Finch
Mother tongue: English
Joined: November 30, 2006
Location: France
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on August 2, 2009 12:40 PM

I found a use for the old super-thick Harrap's that I had to buy way back around 1973.  It is just the right height to elevate my monitor to a good eye level, and instantly relieved back strain.    Apparently you can't look at the screen of flat tops at an angle.  The old dictionary with its red simulated leather and gold print gives a sophisticated air and a splash of colour.

Maxi

Well, the bad news is that a 1973 Harraps dictionary should have been donated to a charity shop no later than 1979, At that time, you are unlikely to have had a computer monitor to prop up.

Paper dictionaries are not only easier on your eyes, they give you extra information that on-line or CD dictionaries don't, they enable you to browse a page, when unexpected interesting information can be gleaned - computer ones tend only to give you information you have deliberately searched for (if you are lucky),  Paper dictionaries feel nice to use, I like turning the pages and picking them up off the floor gives me useful exercise.  Sometimes, I actually have to get up and go to another room to find one: exercise and a change of scene!

As I translate French to English, I use French and UK English monolingual dictionaries (Robert, Collins and Chambers) a bi-lingual dictionary (Collins-Robert).  I use a collection of monolingual and bi-lingual specialist dictionaries on engineering, building, and law.  I also use Roget's thesaurus.  All of these are paper dictionaries and I aim to replace them every five to six years.  I also use various on-line dictionaries including IATA, GDT, but find that my on-line searches tend not necessarily to be directed to dictionaries.


 
Posted:
October 14, 2009 6:42 PM
Post #186857—in reply to #181876
Dodo Kaipdodo
TC Master
Mother tongue: Lithuanian
Posts: 1549
Joined: August 8, 2007
Location: Lithuania
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Nienke Brandsma on August 8, 2009 6:58 AM

I tend to use both - normal dictionaries if I'm unsure, and online dictionaries if I'm just checking something that I think I know anyway.

 

That`s it!


 
Posted:
October 18, 2009 2:22 AM
Post #187099—in reply to #186857
Jacek K.
TC Master
Mother tongue: Polish
Joined: February 18, 2003
Location: Poland
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/10/18/the_word_the_case_for_dictionary_day/

Dictionary Day - also known as Noah Webster’s Birthday - was Oct. 16, and throughout the English-speaking world, small children placed their dictionary stands by the hearthstone, hoping that Noah himself would magically come down the chimney and leave them a shiny new dictionary (left open to the word “dictionary,” of course). In some places, Dictionary Day is celebrated with bonfires of the past years’ dictionaries, the baking of the traditional aardvark-shaped cookies, and the singing of etymology carols.

No? That didn’t happen in your household? I’m a lexicographer, and it didn’t happen in mine, either. ...

* * *

Why is it that so many people choose to keep old dictionaries?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/magazine/18FOB-onlanguage-t.html?_r=1&ref=magazine


 
Posted:
October 18, 2009 4:02 AM
Post #187102—in reply to #187099
Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov
Mother tongues: Polish, English
Posts: 2909
Joined: September 13, 2008
Location: United States
 
RE: Do you still use traditional dictionaries?

Originally written by Jacek K. on October 18, 2009 2:22 AM

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/10/18/the_word_the_case_for_dictionary_day/

Dictionary Day - also known as Noah Webster’s Birthday - was Oct. 16, and throughout the English-speaking world, small children placed their dictionary stands by the hearthstone, hoping that Noah himself would magically come down the chimney and leave them a shiny new dictionary (left open to the word “dictionary,” of course). In some places, Dictionary Day is celebrated with bonfires of the past years’ dictionaries, the baking of the traditional aardvark-shaped cookies, and the singing of etymology carols.

 

This is a great idea, because some dictionaries really deserve to be burnt.     


 


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