So I could'nt help wondering: Are we freelancers still stuck in High School? So much drama, back-stabbing and deceiving feedback regarding other translators work, it is due to lack of quality or have our egos blown out of propotions?

I checked the first option. I specify no percentage, though, because I also deal with good quality all the time, in the case of selected colleagues I am working with.

Jacek

Option # 6.  I can't relate to that experience.

In my actual dealings with clients and colleagues with whom I work, this has never happened. 

Maxi

I checked the incredibly sexist (I thought this was the year 2008!) every MAN for HIMSELF. Hey, I'm definitely not a man, but when I see that others are making a concerted attempt to bully, discredit or otherwise abuse me and others, I just think "I'm glad I don't instigate such behavior." I feel good enough about myself as a person, and as a translator (based on the feedback I get from my clients) that I have no need to direct such behaviors towards others in the profession. 

Since I'm not one of the "big shots," and I am not a follower, in the least, I consider myself INDEPENDENT of all of that, but definitely part of the "whisteblower minority" (but I'm acutally starting to get the idea, based on the results of my frozen poll and private correspondence with other users, that this minority is growing in number on this site, at least privately).

There's hope yet!.

The title of this thread pertains to "the translation industry".  I am making a distinction between the virtual community on TC, and my business dealings.  In the translation industry that I have been involved in for several decades, I have never encountered the types of behaviours described in this poll. 

However, I have encountered these behaviours in discussion forums.  These are not just translation forums, but other forums far removed from translation.  My tentative hypothesis is that Internet forums are a new High School, and what we are witnessing does not reflect the industry as much as it does the medium.

Maxi

Try "junior high school," Maxi. I refer to those who have such low self-esteem that they get high off of publicly bullying and discrediting others...

If anything, these types, along with my skills, make me (and others of like mind) smell like rose(s)...

I know for a fact that several clients refuse to work with some of these grandiose, "I'm always right," personalities...So they spend all of their spare time (which is in abundance, it seems) on a rant against creative, independent thinkers like myself on this website. 

Could it be, at best (huh!), that they are really no better than most other translators?

Good news for you who like sociological studies, Maxi:

All those hours their teenagers spend socializing on the Internet are not a bad thing, according to a new study by the MacArthur Foundation. ... “their participation is giving them the technological skills and literacy they need to succeed in the contemporary world. They’re learning how to get along with others, how to manage a public identity, ....” http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/20/us/20internet.html?_r=1&em

Actually I detest sociological studies, but that's an interesting article, Jacek.     It's about time we stopped underestimating our young people and hanging stereotypes around their necks.

Maxi

An interesting expression, Maxi. Makes me think of "hanging dogs on someone" which in Polish means picking/pulling them to pieces...

Makes me think of The Miller's Tale, mills, grist, ground and millstones. And not to forget - the run of the mill...

Read on: http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/miller.htm

Nanna

Freelancing is a business form, translating is a skill. In both situations tho old adagio goes: you are never too old to learn. Granted, some are too stubborn to learn, but that is an entirely different story .

Personally I prefer feedback and peer review, even if it is bad news, because through constructive critiscism I can learn from my mistakes. The keyword here is constructive. I don't learn much from unfounded critiscism, but maybe that is something I have to learn to cope with, I don't know. I usually am grateful for comments on my work. As a relative newcomer in the industry I take all business opportunities I can get and as a former salesman I have learned to see opportunities in negative critiscism. Maybe I am a bit too naïve... but that is also an entirely different story .

Theo, Dutchman in France

Personally I prefer feedback and peer review

I am the same way.  I think to some degree this can be found in the HFS, but not at all in the "stars".  I have disabled my own feedback for that reason.  Here are some scenarios.

Often when there is a problem between translator and agency, neither of them has prepared properly in the initial steps.  Very frequently these things are in the context of the "auction atmosphere" of bidding, which is a kind of thing I don't do.  The whole premise is wrong in my eyes.  As I have worked, a client will come with a proposed translation, and I will look at what the requirements are, what turnaround time is optimum, and whether I am the person suitable for this kind of work.  We discuss these details in terms of a handcrafted job created by an expert in the field.  By contrast, the auction atmosphere treats it like orders of ketchup bottles or newspaper boys.  How fast and how cheap.  Immediately this sets up failure.  Since the majority of the feedback is within this flawed scenario, it's a first reason not to want to look at statistics of a graph.

It may be that the translator did not estimate his ability and turnaround time.  It may be that the agency has unusual and incorrect expectations.  It may be that both parties made assumptions (very frequently the case).  It may be that the agency is inexperienced, and that an experienced and competent translator can guide the agency through the process if permitted, so that it will go smoothly.  The stars and graphs don't tell us any of these things.

Furthermore, we see both parties using the clout of these ratings for other purposes.  They know the person cares about the "reputation" so they stick in low stars in order to get the other party to react as they want.  Or they get their colleagues to co-rate each other with 5 stars so that the statistics are there for all and sundry.  It's meaningless.

When I see how they actually interacted, that tells me something.

When I see how people present themselves on TCTerms, that tells me a lot.

There are also other things you might not think about.  How clearly and coherently does this person present his ideas when chatting in a forum such as this one?  How careful is his writing?  How does he get along with his peers?  Does he accept correction, and even thank others for it?  If so, this person will be a problem-solver and cooperative when working with someone else.  Does he refuse to take advantage of weaknesses being pointed out?  What if there is a misunderstanding or wrong premise while working together?  Will this person stick to his guns and refuse to solve the problem?  Does he show a sense of responsibility?

There are those who are bothered when told a suggestion they made in TCTerms is wrong.  They worry that their reputation as a professional will suffer.  In my mind, professionals know that mistakes can happen, and the real mark of the professional is not unending perfection, but the willingness to correct a mistake, and accepting that they exist.  What impresses me about a person is not how correct they are, but what they do if their entry is questioned in an intelligent manner.  There are a few of my colleagues who will take a second look, sometimes learn from the new thing offered, and express gratitude instead of defensiveness.  These are the people that I would want to work with, or hire.  I can expect a certain attitude if we run into problems, and also high standards.

I guess these thoughts are somewhat random.

Maxi

Not sure I like any type of criticism. We can add constructive, helpful, and a bunch of others to the list, but in the end we are back to passing judgment on others. Why criticize at all? The act of criticizing someone is, imho, used solely to make one feel superior to another. On the other hand, I welcome when someone offers me help, points me in the right direction, tells me the proper use of a word, and so on.

David

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criticism

Main Entry:

crit·i·cism

Pronunciation:

\ˈkri-tə-ˌsi-zəm\

Function:

noun

Date:

1607

1 a: the act of criticizing usually unfavorably criticism> b: a critical observation or remark criticism> c: critique2: the art of evaluating or analyzing works of art or literature ; also : writings expressing such evaluation or analysis criticism>3: the scientific investigation of literary documents (as the Bible) in regard to such matters as origin, text, composition, or history

By criticism I do not mean a negative thing, nor do I mean an academic or aesthetic appreciation.  I mean something practical.  If I have holes in my approach to translation or business, I want to know about it so that I can improve myself.  If, for example, somebody says "You are translating medical terminology but you seem to have no medical dictionaries, and have not tried to get any background in medicine" then I can get myself medical dictionaries and maybe bet a background in medicine.  My translations will improve in quality.  Or someone may say, "You do not seem to plan well in the negotiating stage of a contract, you're too quick on the trigger, and that's why you're having difficulties with some of your clients, because you then can't deliver - Then I can bone up on my procedure, alternate means of doing things etc.  Being told "Ooh, you're a wonderful translator." does not give me anything except maybe some confidence.

Your cited definitions of criticism and critique leave out the only valuable form which is the one above. The criticism must come from a place of expertise or knowledge or experience.  It must come from wnating to help someone to improve, and the person must want it (That's the tricky part).  It should not be done to put the other person down, or to boost your own ego or to soapbox your own personal philosophies.  If it's done in the right way, it is valuable.

Maxi

Originally written by D. T. on November 24, 2008 9:49 AM ...Why criticize at all? The act of criticizing someone is, imho, used solely to make one feel superior to another. On the other hand, I welcome when someone offers me help, points me in the right direction, tells me the proper use of a word, and so on.   David

Hi David, I think there is a difference in semantics here. I agree with you that critisizing often gives the critic a sense of superiority (although I do not always see that as a bad thing because aiming to be superior, I think, is part of human nature). What you call someone offering to help you or to point you in the right direction, I very often see as constructive critiscism. After all, the need to tell me how to use a word properly does imply I used it incorrectly in the eyes of the critic. In the end it is always my choice (nobody else's) wheather I do something with the cristiscism or not.

Also, the 'packaging' of critiscism means a lot to me. If it comes across as insulting then it probably says mote about the critic than about what it criticized, I certainly would be more inclined to dismiss critiscism as irrelevant, even if the critiscism has merits. But the answer to your question "Why criticize at all?" is in my eyes: because if one perceives an error one can try and amend it. 

Regards,

Theo, Dutchman in France

Here is evidence:

I dunno

Howler Spotting

Also, there is an interesting twist in the Is freelancer a poor quality translation provider? thread which seems to suggest that it is not freelancers who are poor quality translation providers but the agencies for which those freelancers are working.

Jacek

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 24, 2008 10:06 AM By criticism I do not mean a negative thing, nor do I mean an academic or aesthetic appreciation.  I mean something practical.  ...The criticism must come from a place of expertise or knowledge or experience.  Maxi

I agree with you, Maxi. Unfortunately the act of criticism is used, too often, in a negative context and is far from practical. And, when criticism comes from that of expertise, knowledge or experience it is usually not criticism at all (in the sense of putting down the work of another), but a desire to help the other succeed. TCT terms is a great example of this, which by the way I commend you for the efforts you make at turning negative criticism into useful and practical dialog concerning term questions.

David

Originally written by Theo Bernards on November 24, 2008 10:06 AM Also, the 'packaging' of critiscism means a lot to me. If it comes across as insulting then it probably says mote about the critic than about what it criticized, I certainly would be more inclined to dismiss critiscism as irrelevant, even if the critiscism has merits. But the answer to your question "Why criticize at all?" is in my eyes: because if one perceives an error one can try and amend it.    Regards,   Theo, Dutchman in France

The packaging, as with most forms of personal evaluations of others, makes a big difference. I completely agree with you Theo. And yes, it is semantics, but as I mentioned earlier criticism is basically a means of putting down someone. The adding "constructive" is to make it more palatable. I, though, do take it all -good and bad, and use it to improve, even if the packaging is less than desirable.

David

Can we say, then, that it is TCT (which I hardly ever visit) that is the primary implied backdrop to this poll?

I must admit that you are a bigger person than I am, David, because I instinctively react very hot-headed when the packaging is negative or downright insulting. My temperament has cost me in the past (I tend to raise the volume in conversations  when insulted) and although I have learned to curb it a bit, I have no doubt it will cost me in the future. I think it has to do with my reluctance to compromise, at least, that is what my wife occasionally says but whenever she says that I find an excuse to do something solitary for the next few minutes. I take great solace from the adagio "The sweetest victory is the avoided fight" but find it sometimes difficult to live up to that adagio. Maybe I am a bit primal in my wiring .

OK, back to work, no doubt I will join in the discussion later

Theo, Dutchman in France

Yes, Jacek, I do believe we can.

David

Unfortunately the act of criticism is used, too often, in a negative context and is far from practical. And, when criticism comes from that of expertise, knowledge or experience it is usually not criticism at all (in the sense of putting down the work of another), but a desire to help the other succeed. TCT terms is a great example of this ...   Can we say, then, that it is TCT (which I hardly ever visit) that is the primary implied backdrop to this poll?

I'm a bit lost.  You are referruing to the discussion on the various forms of criticism.  Then you go from criticism to the idea that TCTerms is the primary backdrop of the poll - but the poll is not about criticism.  It is about childish behaviour. 

If I can take the theme of criticism, and relate it to TCTerms - Yes, the terms section do give us a constant opportunity for growth as our knowledge and approach to terminology problem-solving are put to the test.  It is the terms themselves that are under scrutiny, of course.  We are able to see where our own strengths and weaknesses.

I'm looking at the quote again: The poster has said that in TCTerms input is not "criticism" in a negative sense, but a sincere effort to help.

but a desire to help the other succeed. TCT terms is a great example of this ...

I don't see the "high school behaviour" of the poll reflected in "sincere effort to help".

Originally written by Jacek Krankowski on November 24, 2008 5:05 PM So a poll about "other translators work" and about the "translation industry" is in reality a poll about terminology research and related squabbling?

So it seems to me.

If people want to complain about TCTerms - fine - but please do so clearly and in the designated forum and not here in the guise of something else that is of general interest to the whole community. The fighting, the squabbling, the criticism and the general level of ineptitude doesn't interest me.  

Nanna

I am taking the poll to be asking about the translation industry, not TCTerms.  There is no such behaviour in the translation industry that I have experienced.  I have also just come back from moderating TCTerms, my two sections.  By and large I see mature professional individuals helping each other most of the time, and definitely today.

This poll does not mention TCTerms so I'd like to keep it on the subject that was presented - the translation industry.  Answer: nope - not to my knowledge.

Maxi 

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 24, 2008 5:28 PM I am taking the poll to be asking about the translation industry, not TCTerms.  ...

I appreciate these clarifications. I was increasingly feeling like in a high school where everyone knows what the hidden agenda is and I am the only one kept in the dark...

Answer: nope - not to my knowledge.

Indeed, neither any of the three critical threads I linked to above brings any high school associations to my mind...

Jacek

I do not understand the poll or the reasoning behind it. I did not vote, for how can I when I don't understand the reason for the poll? I am still in the dark... The subsequent posts by members who almost never visit the fora provided a strong clue that there was a hidden agenda...glad I was wrong

Nanna

Originally written by Jacek Krankowski on November 24, 2008 11:05 AM So a poll about "other translators work" and about the "translation industry" is in reality a poll about terminology research and related squabbling?

Well, actually, only the originator of the poll would know the true intent. We can only guess. I don’t see how, though, that some of the isolated high school behavior in the TC Terms section cannot be associated with the theme of the poll. For the most part TC Terms, as well as the other forums are professional. We see isolated cases of high school behavior in all forums and not only here at TC. The more restricted the forums (those allowed to participate), the less of the high school type behavior. At least that is what I have seen.

TC is more open (anyone can become a member), and, therefore, not in the least restrictive. This allows for very open discussions and at times behavior, that although not understood, can be interesting and enlightening. I don't think we can take isolated incidences of high school type behavior within TC, regardless of the area, to say it is part of an industry theme. Just my opinion as I have been fortunate to deal with very top notch professionals in the translation industry.

David

That's always good to know!

Jacek

Well, whatever the pollster's intent, I have decided to consider it as worded: "Is the translation industry the new high school"

If the OP has certain ideas in mind, it does not mean that I have to share them.  No, the translation industry is not like high school (such as it is described here).

I've just moderated my pairs and I see mature professionals helping each other. 

The poll is also insulting to high schools and to young men and women of high school age who may well have a thing or two to teach us.

In any case, since we are invited to discuss the translation industry, why don't we do just that?

Maxi

I thought we were discussing the translation industry – all of it, or did I get lost somewhere? Just because a thread takes a turn around the bend now and then doesn’t mean the main theme is lost.

David

Edited to add: Don't be afraid to look at your faults. – Yoruba proverb

I thought the above appropriate to the topic of how we deal with others both personally, and within the translation industry. Sometimes we are quick to find the faults in others but when our own are pointed out, well...

David, I was addressing the concern that the OP had an agenda, and suggesting we don't need to follow it.  If the discussion veers of its own accord, why not?

Maxi

Where "OP" means...?

Original poster?

Yes, original poster or original post.  Sorry.

Maxi

Thank you, DN.

...and DM.

I don't understand it either. Especially from a new member. Agree with you. I still don't get.

I like provocations (that’s why I responded to this thread), but since it seems that we have reached a dead end (no one will talk about bad translations and there seems to be no high school behavior outside TCT), time for a digression re:

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 22, 2008 2:34 PM   Originally written by Jacek Krankowski on November 22, 2008 7:10 AM Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 21, 2008 11:44 PM Internet forums are a new High School Good news for you who like sociological studies, Maxi: All those hours their teenagers spend socializing on the Internet are not a bad thing http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/20/us/20internet.html?_r=1&em Actually I detest sociological studies, but that's an interesting article….

An exhibition in Warsaw (http://www.csw.art.pl/new/2007program/1112cale_en.html) has reminded me of the famous Margaret Thatcher’s quote:

There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. (http://briandeer.com/social/thatcher-society.htm)

If true, this could make our tribal world so much happier! Once independent in their thinking from various clans and pressure groups, people could revaluate all sorts of assumptions and stop voting like sheep for warmongers, for example. Etc. etc.

There is something in the description of that exhibition that tells me that, although populated by individuals, the world is not exactly individualist. They talk about “strikes by miners,” for example. Oh, so there is a social, not individual, category like that! “The comic aspects of class hierarchy and absurdity of human behavior arising from traditional British limitations. The social costs of de-industrialization and globalization ... The mood of social catastrophe…” Gee, so apart from individuals, there are also some classes, British traditional limitations, de-industrialization which is not quite individual, and globalization which may go beyond family borders. The mood of social catastrophe…

And now the high school category here…

An exhibition in Warsaw

That is heartening to see.   Did you go to it, Jacek?  The faces on those three children strike me, but I don't know how.

Maxi

It just opened, Maxi. And tonight I am off to

Chamber music concert
PALESTRINA, DE VICTORIA, MARENZIO, DA VENOSA

POLISH CHAMBER CHOIR

(http://www.filharmonia.pl/koncerty_wlasne.en.html)

Originally written by Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov on November 25, 2008 2:56 PM ...not a high school. I would not have survived even for three weeks.

Certainly not in the movie 'Cry Wolf' I saw on Canal+ last night where "high school seniors playing a game of lies come face-to-face with terror" ... (http://www.phase9.tv/movies/crywolf.shtml)

Maybe it depends "which high school".  I would not want my relationship with colleagues and clients to resemble the fictional world I've seen on television, but then, I don't live in a fictional world.  I and my two sons each attended a different high school, and I'd not be unhappy to have that type of interaction of any of the three institutions and their "inhabitants".

Maxi

Never met preppidom.  Real people.

Maxi