Dear colleagues;

I just want to know how insulting do you think it can be when you -as a professional translator- read the following ad:

Dear Translator,

I have an immediate job (5000-13000) words depending on how much you can handle. The files must be delivered by Sunday at 12pm US Eastern Standard Time. The text is not complicated, see a sample below. I’m looking for translators (English into Arabic) who can deliver on time. Please email me ASAP if:
- Your are a native Arabic speaker
- Have experience in technical manuals
- At least 5 years of experience in translation

I can offer a rate of 0.03 USD per word; this is just a start for long term cooperation. Payment is within 30 days of receiving the invoice.

The deadline must be met. Please email your CV as an attachment to XXXXXXXXX

Thank you

Ed
XXXXXXXXX

Sample
Once the battery is installed, the ASAAF will run a start-up Built-In-Test (BIT). (This is accomplished very quickly; watch closely.) An interactive switch test will then be performed. If BIT is passed, the display will indicate “Built-In-Test Passed, install weapon, WPN TYPE or AIM” indicating the ASAAF is ready for operation. A BIT failure will be displayed as “FAIL [xxxxx]” where [xxxxx] is the five (5) character failure code. If the BIT fails, refer to Chapter 3, Section I, Troubleshooting. If the BIT passes, perform the following instructions

So what this poster is saying:

- This is a rush assignment (less than three days for 15000 words)

- I will not change the standard for time of payment (30 days)

- I will pay a ridiculous rate (even compared with rates for reasonable deadlines) of 0.03 rate

I think that there should be a limit of the lowest rate that can be offered, just in order to keep professionalism on TC. I think it is our role to stop the practices of some agencies and their trials to take advantage of the translators.

Sincerly,

Sofiene Addala

If, according to TC's rate statistics, a job offers less than the average rate, perhaps that job could be relegated, in some way, to a "peanuts department", where it would be highly non-preferred in terms of e.g. visibility, and perhaps also be accompanied by some kind of warning.

On the other hand, I actually think that posters should not be permitted to make any offers whatsoever. This applies both to absolute rates and to euphemisms such as "your best price", "for long term cooperation" and "considering the size of the job". TC should not degrade into an auction house for virtual sweat shops to abuse. When one wishes to retain a professional, one does not offer a price, but requests the professional(s) to.

Ads like that are very frustrasting, of course.

I simply ignore this kind of job, which is simply ridiculous for me, considering that:

- they pay 0,03 USD pw
- they pay whitin 30 days

and that they won't change their mind for what concerns payment method and rate.

But... is there any other approach possible at all?

Originally written by Laurent J. Krauland on November 21, 2008 11:53 AM There simply were too many discussions about prices and rates on TC and elzewhere...

This has been clearly one of the most debated topics and pretty much everything has been said about it over and over again. A Forum Search with 'low rates' or 'cents' or 'ridiculous' as key words in the header turns up the following examples:

Ridiculously Low Rates,
Handling clients who ask for lower rates,
2007 translation rates (even)lower ??,
2 or 3 cents per word payments,
Is .04 the new standard rate in the US?,
PROTEST Re Job Post at Ridiculously low rate,
Ridiculous Rates,
Another ridiculous job offer,
Ridiculous job offer

Talking of a devil, just received such offer myself:

''Ok, now let me explain some terms and conditions before starting with our cooperation.
1. We offer US$0.04/W per source word English to Danish translation or vice versa.
2. We follow 3-month payment term. For example: if you start the translation job for us from this month, we'll accumulate all the jobs you have done and pay at the last day of Jan 2009; similarly, Dec's fee will be paid on Feb 28th. 2008,  e.g. every last day of each month.
3. Sometimes our new client requests for trial translation, we'll selecte around 150-200 words each time if necessary, but it's not for all the cases.
4. We request on-time delivery with good quality translation.
I've clarified all the terms, if you have any questions, pls feel free to let me know. I'll pass you new job immediately once I receive your confirmation.''

How insulting is that!!!!!:

1. USD 0.04/source word

2. 3 months payment terms (haven't had such yet in my 11 years of translating!!!)

3. Occasional free test translations ( I bet would ask to do them for every client, every order they get)

How rude should that be stating such offer, which actually makes you reply in a certain way which I did) and teach them a lesson.

I still hopesuch offers will not ruin my Friday

Best of luck to everybody

Karolina

Quite insulting. Especially considering the fact that you are not registered as an agency and your native language isn't Danish.

Not that you are taking bread out of my mouth, for the rate is just not...

Nanna

The job they offered is from English-Lithuanian (my native), I think they gave the instructions as the copied and pasted template, which had English-Danish on it.

But still...

Karolina

Okay, I stand corrected. But still...

Do you really master all these source and target languages? From your profile: 

LANGUAGE COMBINATION OFFERED:

FROM GERMAN TO LITHUANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LITHUANIAN TO GERMAN TRANSLATION

FROM ESTONIAN TO LITHUANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LITHUANIAN TO ESTONIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LATVIAN TO LITHUANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LITHUANIAN TO LATVIAN TRANSLATION

FROM POLISH TO LITHUANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LITHUANIAN TO POLISH TRANSLATION

FROM UKRAINIAN TO LITHUANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LITHUANIAN TO UKRAINIAN TRANSLATION

FROM ROMANIAN TO LITHUANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LITHUANIAN TO ROMANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM SWEDISH TO LITHUANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LITHUANIAN TO SWEDISH TRANSLATION

FROM DANISH TO LITHUANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LITHUANIAN TO DANISH TRANSLATION

FROM NORVEGIAN TO LITHUANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LITHUANIAN TO NORWEGIAN TRANSLATION

FROM SPANISH TO LITHUANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LITHUANIAN TO SPANISH TRANSLATION

FROM PORTUGUESE TO LITHUANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LITHUANIAN TO PORTUGUESE TRANSLATION

FROM ITALIAN TO LITHUANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LITHUANIAN TO ITALIAN TRANSLATION

FROM FINNISH TO LITHUANIAN TRANSLATION

FROM LITHUANIAN TO FINNISH TRANSLATION 

Dear Ed

Thanks for raising this issue. I can se an increasing amount of shameless "job offers" coming my way lately ( I translate English-Norwegian), and have also discussed this with other translators. I know the ecomomic situation also affect us translators, however, it is still a high skill profession. My advise: respond back, in direct, still professional way

keep up the good work, guys!

Of course not ...

I myself work in English-Lithuanian-English, French-Lithuanian, Russian-Lithuanian-Russian....

It says in my profile that on other combinations I collaborate with my colleagues working in combinations with Lithuanian languages.

don't think it's TC's role (or any other site for translators) to dictate which rates are reasonable and which rates are not. It should be common sense instead.

Patrick, it's not a matter of dictating, and it's not as simple as that.

Because of places like TC, ProZ, maybe Aquarius and others I don't know about, those who wish to find translators now have one central place.  They come to the gathering hole of where hundreds of translators come to drink, like lions in an African water hole.  They can attract translators willing to work at such rates via the Internet, of course, but they would be scattered.  Here all the translators have been corraled and collected for them.  Not only that, but job notifications are sent out for them, reaching hundreds of people possibly, and they will always find somebody.

There are only so many jobs in existence.  These folks usually get massive jobs:50,000 words, 100,000 words.  We hear tales of slave labour, 5,000 words per day @ .03/word. This means some customer is getting fast turnaround at low rates.

This work then does not come our way, or reach agencies that deal with translators in a professional manner allowing them to work toward quality at a decent pay for service.  My agency-regulars have been telling me for 5 or more years that work is trickling to almost nothing.  Where is it all going, do you think?

Last week I got a phone call from overseas in regards to doing a small remaining portion of a large job of 50,000 words.  The regular rates were less than half of mine, this was the usual rate, and this agency was getting huge contracts on a regular basis.  Meanwhile my customers (agencies) don't have much coming in, in comparison to before.

When we approve cheap job offers we are saying that it is ok, and we are playing a part in creating trends that affect our own livelihood!

Maxi

That's why I would never approve them. I don't care about that kind of high, fast, traffic either here or at TCT, although I perfectly understand that there is demand for that.

BTW, I liked your image of a gathering hole for animals in Africa, Maxi!

Jacek

I understand that people are frustrated by what they perceive as low prices, but you need to understand that one person's low price is another person's well-paid job.  For someone who feels "insulted" by a job price, consider whether when you hire a plumber, you poll everyone in the world to see if someone would be insulted by what you're willing to pay.  Customers are not obligated to pay anymore than they need to.  It is a basic principle of economics, supply and demand.  If you are a services provider and find yourself at the high end of the price market, that is not a customer's problem, and you should not feel insulted by his legitimate attempts to pay a price that someone else is eager to accept.  A customer has every right to seek the best deal, and you have every right to refuse his offer.  This is how a free market works.

As for attempts to set minimum rates, this would almost certainly be unlawful under the anti-trust laws of the United States, the European Union, and many other jurisdictions.

Slightly off topic, but still dealing with the 'This is the price - pay it or find someone else' approach.

The price for glasses is very high in Denmark. A pair of great looking bifocals (reading and computer) came in at DKK 6,368.- and a pair of long distance glasses cost DKK 2,824.00 for a total of DKK 9,192.00, which is close to US$ 1600.00 for two pair of glasses. Pricey eh?

Working for a pwr of US$ 00.03, I would have to translate approx. 53,333 words to make US$ 1600.00, which would mean working 27 days straight if I translated 2000 words per day. I would be making approx. US$ 60.00 per day. I would have to pay at least 40 percent in income tax on that money.

I also have to pay for shelter, food, heat and electricity etc. I need approx. DKK 9000.00 to cover my running expenses. When will I be able to buy those glasses? Not until the cows come home...

Nanna

I wonder how many Western plumbers would enjoy being members of a plumbing job board where they would be bombarded with "offers" of being paid USD 5 per hour.

If specific "offers" would no longer be allowed on TC, hopefully such "offers" would confine themselves to platformz where they would be, on average, appreciated more highly. This would not be price fixing, merely segmentation.

I personally do not know any plumber who works for less than  $35  an hour. Their rates are, however ,controlled by the union, perhaps we should form an international translators union. 

I am not sure if I am serious about it. Just a possibility. The only other alternative would be to strenghten translators' consciousness and translators' self-esteem. 

Originally written by David Kallans on November 21, 2008 5:53 PM Originally written by Thor Kottelin If specific "offers" would no longer be allowed on TC, hopefully such "offers" would confine themselves to platformz where they would be, on average, appreciated more highly. This would not be price fixing, merely segmentation. I respectfully suggest that you do not have a well-informed understanding of the meaning of price-fixing as that term is used in anti-trust law.  An agreement to disallow prices below a certain thresshold could easily be deemed unlawful price fixing.

I am not advocating a threshold, but a ban on any price offers. Do you mean that such a ban would, in some relevant jurisdiction, qualify as indirect price fixing?

Please feel welcome to base your argumentation on legal norms rather than merely on my lack of understanding.

I absolutely agree. I think it is the translators that should provide their best rates, so that the company has some choice whose rate to chose, the lowest one or the most experienced translators'.

Liliana

Quote format fixed by forum administrator

Maxi,

I don't think we have a role of police of the translation profession. I think our role should simply be limited to warning people not to accept such low rate jobs and not to decide that, at a certain price, a job is good enough to be posted to the community.

Dear colleagues,

Thank to all for your input and just to be back to the subject. I don't think that we are trying to play the role of the police here. We are saying that we are not allowing the industry to be spoiled by people who care only about your rate and not about the quality.

What I first appreciated in TC was that it was a professional website, run by people who are really professional. You can tell when you notice that no linguist can offer less than 0.05$ in his profile and no job poster can enter into the system a rate less than 0.05$.

The terms of use of TC already talked about the matter, so we are not setting a new rule and we are not even discussing the importance of the matter. Technically, it is possible to check if a poster is breaking the rules of the site and the ad can be banned. As posts are deleted if they contain spams they also should be deleted if they break other rules such as the lowest rate.

I don't know for you colleagues, but when a client offers me a rate of $0.03 all what I can understand, is that this client is not interested in the quality and he would assign the job to any person that will deliver a text written in the destination language (no matter was the quality). I ignore him/her for sure. This is what I can initially do, but I also express and ask him to not return to me with any similar offers. We certainly can do more than ignoring. The point from this thread is to express some "anger" and a request to all such posters to stop "insulting" us.

Sofiene Addala

(Ed is actually the name of the job poster) 

More related threads:

Tsk Tsk Tsk 10.00 an hour

RE: Improving Job Posters' Obligatory Information

Inflation goes up, up, up and translation prices go down, down, down

Professional associations vs. antitrust

Also Post #124009

Originally written by Laurent Chiacchierini on November 21, 2008 12:09 PM I personally do not know any plumber who works through the Internet to repair leaks on your pipework,

Do you think, Laurent, the translators' work is easier because it is done over the internet?  I am not for fixed prices, this was just a possibility, not even  a very serious one. I just wish people had more self-esteem and did not work for $0.03/word, people who have sometimes years of education  working for fast food restaurant seasonal employees' rates. 

Originally written by Laurent J. Krauland on November 21, 2008 6:10 PM I don't see what can possibly be regarded as illegal when you create e.g. a groupment with commercial aims (in this case: producing and selling translations) having the status of a registered legal person and to say: "Groupment XYZ makes/sells translations for such prices". I may have misunderstood you, David, but this will not block translators who are not members of the groupment to make/sell translations at lower prices - and therefore fixing prices as described above is perfectly legal.

 

At least from a European viewpoint, the situation probably is not quite that simple.

One of the paramount anti-trust rules, Article 81 of the EC Treaty, basically prohibits, among others, "all agreements between undertakings, decisions by associations of undertakings and concerted practices which may affect trade between Member States and -- in particular those which -- directly or indirectly fix purchase or selling prices --".

This ban applies even if the entire market does not participate in such an agreement. A few exceptiions are listed in paragraph 3 though.

(This is not legal advice, just my less-than-well-informed understanding.)

Originally written by David Kallans on November 21, 2008 6:28 PM Thor, I may have misunderstood your posting, and apologize if I came off as gruff.  A categorical ban on offers would probably be fine, as there would be no price-fixing.

Thank you. No hard feelings. I could have explained myself more clearly, considering how active this thread has been today.

Hi, David. You are  right. Let them charge $0.01/word if they want to. You can always live on water and potatoes in some countries, possibly berries.  I probably meant the people in New York, but I do not think they charge less than $0.1/word. What do I care. I do more court interpreting and legal translations, so I am paid appropriately, when I have work. Sometimes it is slow, but not that bad really.

Liliana

I am joking, David. Of course I care. I think that a comapny located in New York should pay exactly the same price to a translator in New York as to a translator in Dellhi, if their knowledge and experience are competable. Paying somebody in the Made Up  land  less than in the US is worse than 19th century capitalism.  The work should constitute the basis for the rate, not somebody's location. 

I agree. That would be rather paradoxal.

The customer is the judge of quality.  Perhaps all he wants is a bicycle, but you're trying to sell him a Mercedes Benz.  It's inappropriate for you to say that he doesn't care about "quality" simply because he doesn't want the most expensive option on the market.  He may be perfectly content with something less costly.  For him to spend anymore is wasteful and economically inefficient.

Quality is defined as conformity with customer requirements.

The final cost of a translation project that begins with low-quality translation may well end up very high, as much editing, or even a complete retranslation, may be needed. (Of course, it may also be possible to obtain good quality at a low price.)

My experience with "Quality of the North with prices of the South" * outsourcers approaching me is that they do indeed want quality. They are not the least bit shy about their incredibly rude "we want, you must, we will not, but you will" all accompanied by a demand for incredibly fast turnaround, thrice removed from the original source text source texts, a badly scanned PDF with pages and pages of illegible handwriting, number of mentioned source words no where near the actual number which is always higher, and an easy technical text that shouldn't take you more than... All delivered on time and in the most pristine layout with not an error or else...

They want quality from an in-country translator whose native language is Danish... but they will not pay the in-country rates. They haggle and squabble like cheap merchants. Terrible!

I used to be infinitely patient and very polite. Now, I will write one polite reply and past that, I dump their emails into the trash.  

Nanna

* I did not make this up.  

Hi, Nanna. I personally think that there is no such a thing as translation without quality, like you cannot be a little bit pregnant. I cannot  imagine that anybody might want a  third degree , lets say, quality of translation, for example the verbs not necessarily perfect, or articles not necessarily present. Something is either an accurate translation or not a translation at all.  Proper translation should be properly paid for. 

I agree with the latter part.

However, not all clients of all translators are businesses. Of course, private persons may nevertheless behave very businesslike.

I am very pleased to see this discussion taking place in a proper forum, because I have also seen it happen on a website in The Netherlands in the space where one could read bids on a project, where it went on to become very unfriendly towards the project bidder (if not to say rude and insulting). I find this a very difficult matter and in my opinion it is not as simple as a lot of translators seem to think. There are several reasons thinkable for the demand of low cost translations and not all of them are insulting towards the profession. For example, I have recently bought a swimming pool (or at least a large bag with an inflatable ring at the top one can fill with water) and with that swimming pool came a pump, made in China. What I paid for that swimming pool, including pump, was so little that I wondered if the producer made any profit at all. I was pleasantly surprised to see that the translated user manual of the accompanying pump was in a few languages including English and Dutch, and that it was done fairly properly. For a company such as the pump's producer (located in China and probably its biggest market is China) it is IMHO very understandable they look for translators with Chinese rates in the back of their mind. Whenever such a company enters the translation market, it needs education and guidance, not disdain.

As for organising translators into a union or a movement: we are by nature a bit of adventurers. Whenever adventurers get together a lot is discussed and undertaken, but new adventures are few and far between. Also, my background cannot be compared with that of a translator who has studied for years and who is accredited. Does that mean there is no room in the market for both of us? No, it doesn't. I will never win a bid in the clients pool of that accredited translator, and the rate my clients are willing to pay will most likely exclude that accredited translator from even being considered. It is more than likely that one organisation can probably not look after both our interests.

Finally, we live and work in an open market. We may like it or not like it, but open markets mean competition and when in competition we can compete using various mechanisms, and one of them is price. Open market also means there is a buyers market. Who can blame any buyer for trying to get the most out of his money? After all, it is the buyer who decides what money changes hands, not the translators.

Laurent,

I understand what you are saying and while I fully agree, it is just a fact of life that prices are going down all the time in B2B. Some prospective clients just anticipate that downward spiral a bit too fast . Mind you, I don't agree at all with that downward tendency of prices for the simple reason my local supermarket lives in this airy fairy dream world where prices continue to go up , but not agreeing is not the same as accepting. In this open market I have my minimum standards and I will be darned if I ever accept a rate below my own minimum. There are plenty of vegetables in my garden, and while I love my piece of meat every day, I can survive on beans, lettuce and potatoes if I have to .

Having said all that, each has his or her own personal situation and it must be frustrating to be offered these kind of low-rated jobs, I know I am whenever a bozo from India or Shanghai offers rates that insult any prefessional. It must be even more frustrating to feel you have to accept the offer so you can pay your bills, as I feel occurson a regular basis. I can only sympathize with that. I do feel, however, that a lot of low fees offered come down to education of the prospective clients. Once they are shown why their rates are unreasonable, they are in my experience more than willing to discuss a more reasonable fee. They do in the end want the best possible translation they can afford within their budget, and that budget is in my experience always larger than the initial rate offer suggests.

Regards,

Theo Bernards, Dutchman in France

We should be aware that there are two "markets".  This cattle auction scenario which includes relative newcomers to the industry both in terms of so-called agencies (profiteering middlemen) and people who say they are translators and some who actually are, has created a relationship which is not as it should be.  There are a lot of things wrong with the common scenario on a professional level, and not only in terms of price.

There is also a traditional market that does not work in the same manner, and is outside of that sphere.  I have longterm clients who are agencies, none of whom has ever set foot in the Internet world.  That is to say, one relatively young local agency now has an Internet presence and seems more "modern", but they work in terms of quality, expect to both charge and pay for it, and have an efficient quality assurance as well as pick-up system for hard copy translation, streamlined and efficient from beginning to end.  It begins by having knowledgeable PMs who are knowledgeable in the field and continues on to qualified translators both for translation and proofreading. 

I just shake my head at some of the things I see recounted in the forums.  It's not how it has to be.

Maxi

Originally written by Jonathan Ellis on November 22, 2008 10:00 AM We discuss low prices, we discuss quality, we discuss the workings of the market, but we always seem to forget how this situation arises in a large number of cases. Let me try to give an example. Company X annually requires user manuals for at least 40 new products to be translated into 37 languages.... Jonathan

Example of this is a call for bids in 34 languages posted today. First line: "Only HUMAN translations, native speakers" and they go on to specify "we will not accept software translations"

Last line: "Due to our limited budget and huge amount of work, we are expecting to choose the best from the bests at the lowest prices as possible..." Wouldn't I love to find the "best from the bests" of Champagne at the "lowest prices as possible" - realistically though, I know that at the lowest possible price, I'll only get at best if I'm lucky"the best" of a very ordinary and headache-inducing sekt/mousseux - not even knowing if it will even actually be delivered by a supposedly serious on-line merchant!

As someone said earlier, no need to say that you'll pay 3 or 5 cents: people will rush in at the "lowest prices as possible" anyway in this type of reverse auction meat market that translators websites have become. And it works: they have already received 313 "bids".

their concluding line: "feel please free and inflict your proposal to our plan"
And I agree that the dentist or plumber are not good benchmarks: not just because they're B2C, but simply because they can't deliver their services via the web or at the other end of the world.

Just like Champagne and sekt, there are different market segments in our business, and the 3/5-cent segment has grown with the expansion of web-based capabilities: we can choose which one we wish to enter, based on our cost of living needs and which one we can enter based on our competence and quality.

df

Note: this offer doesn't come from faraway: Romania, i.e. the EU - But then, we also see regularly on TCT for instance Romanian translators working from French into English or vice versa, so we can probably presume that most agencies hunting for low rates in low-cost countries via the web have little concern for quality and don't seem to care if they get monkey quality for the peanuts they pay.

Hi, Teo.  Education, this is key.  Some clients still think that one word is equivalent to one word in another language. I am not even  talking  about the prices here,  but simply methods of translation.  Some even try to teach the translator, and interpretor especially, to use exactly one word for one word.

I think a good teaching tool would be the 20 volume new Oxford Dictionary to show them as a proof of the kind of knowledge expected from a translator. Maybe I am exaggerating, but teaching by shock is sometimes good.    

Here's another "market reality".  Person x creates a generic 'business package' with some generic ISO standards and general business procedures that can be generally applicable anywhere.  He buys a domain name and creates a number of these things with the needed interactivity.  He creates one for "translation" and another one for "accounting" and another one for "who knows?".

Person x then sells his "translation agency packages" along with the "how to's" which come from the generic business package, telling prospective buyers that they can make money by having these people called translators work and bring in the cash for them, which will be paid by these other people called clients.  There is a generic "quality control" system, a "bidding system", one or two "project managers" are hired whose training consists of whatever has been written by Person x, who knows nothing about translation.

Person y buys this package, and sets up his agency.  Neither he, nor his project managers, know anything about translation or the industry.  They fill up their database with people who they deem to be translators, and revisors (or as they call them, proofreaders), and follow all the procedures outlined, including scouring the Internet for rates.  In this general state of cluelesness they then run their business, often hiring* equally clueless people, or gullible because they're entering the market for the first time and believe what they're told.

The selling of money making packages, the trend to make money out of the Internet, and a false kind of understanding of profession + business according to a money-making formula, is a market reality and and of itself.

Maxi

* Edit: That is to say, they think they are "hiring" them, because they also don't understand the nature of subcontracting.

Hi, David can you imagine somebody who might want a skirt which is longer on one side as opposed  on the other, excluding the cases in which it is done on purpose according to some design calling for uneveness. Of course,  I can imagine these people:  I just do not understand the point.  Why would anybody want a translation where an appendix is translated as appendicitis or gastritis as gastricities.  Would that be a translation? 

P.S. How many elephant cases do you get a year?

I did, in fact, run into David's scenario some years ago.  Somebody was trying to find out something about a certain matter, I think, and several of us were given massive amounts of newspaper and magazine articles with the instruction, "Don't polish.  Translate as much as you can as fast as you can.  We need the gist of it."  At some point we got the order, "You can stop now."

You are right, Liliane, that translation error is never acceptable.  There is a big difference between aleatory and alligator.  But I usually go through a 3-stage quality control for style and absolute precision sentence by sentence, phrase by phrase, and I didn't do that.  My fee was lower because I did less work per word and provided a lesser per-word service, so to say.  I still charged something like .10/word, though.

However, in a number of these "cheap translation, fast turnaround" scenarios, the client is not really in the loop at all.  That is to say, the end client, is being messed with as much as the translator.  The agency is a middleman raking in the profits exploiting a gullible client and possibly gullible service provider.  My bottom line in translation is that I must serve the needs of the end client.  If the agency itself is not concerned with these needs, then I can't be sure that I am providing that service.

Maxi

and they will come right back to you:

http://www.eurozonetranslations.com/

Nice one Jeff!

I'll remember this one for my future dealings with underpaying clients!

Theo Bernards, Dutchman in France

Dear friends,

We haven't considered the possibility that there might be very good translators out there, who are very skilled and all, but who need to work desperately even for such low prices or who live in a country where such prices are  not so bad. After all, there are people in the so-called third world who spend 10-12 hours making clothes for laughable prices, clothes that in Europe will be sold for a little fortune, and they do it because the little amount they earn puts food on the table. The fact that they work for cheap does not necessarily mean they are not good. That goes for translators, too. Let's not underestimate people that work for little money. 

I have never underestimated my peers.  I am against exploitation, especially if the exploiters are ignorant of translation matters while trying to dictate procedure and price.

Maxi

Great page! I love it!  Is that your own doing, Jeff?

dominique

oh yes Gemma, we have indeed considered that possibility (in this and other related threads)! And so have the profit-hungry intermediaries in European and NA countries! Which is why we need to speak up and let these "very good translators" know that these Eur. and NA agencies are exploiting them by offering to pay peanuts (selling their "good" translations for 15, 20 or more eurocents to their Paris or NY clients and paying their freelancers 2 or 4 dollar cents), that they deserve more than that and should insist on higher rates from these Eur. & NA agencies and could make a much better living in their own country without having to work 12 hours a day and without destroying the "quality market" in our high-cost countries. Particularly since those "very good translators" are actually the only competition threat in terms of rate dumping.

df

Originally written by Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov on November 22, 2008 4:42 PM Why the companies in the countries with richer economies do not pay them the same prices as they would pay somebody at home....?

Because there have to be some slaves somewhere who will remain slaves forever, with permanently and terminally lower costs of living.

Why should a gadget on the US market cost $100 if you can drive the price of 10 different gadgets down to $10 a piece and get the customer to buy, and service, and upgrade, and periodically replace, all the 10 of them instead? Isn't the life full of cheap gadgets imported from cheap countries more interesting and rewarding? I think it is because otherwise people would not live it.

Apart from that I do find interesting the drive to consume as much and as often as possible at prices lower and lower thanks to the competition, while at the same time paying the workers the same, and possibly higher, rates/salaries. I believe they call it eating the cake and still having it. It's a great concept!

Jacek

To tell you honestly a lot of the employees of the big corporations are slaves too; slaves to their bosses, managers, etiquette, the strive not to loose the job. There were even mugs in New  York saying:  You cannot fire me, slaves can only  be  sold. This is why it is so great to work freelance.

Those of you with access to the HFS may want to read this short, but very informative thread about social dumping:

http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/MegaBBS/thread-view.asp?threadid=4760&messageid=59769#59769

which is where I first heard the slogan:

Quality of the North with rates of the South

To tell you honestly David, I do not think these are market prices, but a total disgrace  sometimes. It depends how you calculate a market  price, whether you want a $1,000 Christmas bonus for yourself or for the CEO, or a manger of a smaller  company or  a $50,000  bonus.  If these prices were really market prices I would  agree, but I doubt it. 

Let alone the  $67,000 000 Christmas bonuses on Wall Street last year. 

Originally written by David Kallans on November 22, 2008 7:15 PM Originally written by Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov Why shouldn't they work for more money though? Why is somebody taking adventage of them and taking advantage of other people in more developed countries or, let's call them, economicly richer countries?  Why shouldn't they work for more money?  Perhaps because the market does not allow it.  ... In essence, demands for higher prices are a form of explotitation, as it takes jobs away from the Third World, and artificially shifts them to the west.  It is thus a form of nouveau colonialism, a 21st century effort to drain resources from the developing world.

They will work for anything and under any conditions. I also watched a documentary concerning the Danish retail chain, Jysk Sengetøjslager. Terrible! And NO! I don't buy their towels... 

"...Last year, it was revealed that a Danish retail chain, Jysk Sengetøjslager, was selling towels produced by Indian workers who were standing knee-deep in dangerous chemicals during the production. Another topical example revealed that Pakistani children down to the age of 10-12 years have their hands in acid baths to clean hospital equipment for Danish hospitals, among other things.

These examples are in no way unique. According to ILO-estimates, 480,000 workers die every year because of exposure to dangerous substances at work. Globally, 2.2m workers die every year as a consequence of occupational accidents or work-related illnesses. This corresponds to 6000 a day. In addition to this, the UN estimates that 180m children under the age of 14 have work which is so rough that it damages their physical or mental health.

- We know that millions and millions of children and adults work under slave-like conditions to produce goods for the Western countries. …

http://www.lo.dk/Englishversion/News/Fairtrade.aspx

Nanna

Hi, David, I think we should just work all for free, to spread the wonderful gift of communication. I think we can always get some evening jobs waiting the tables or bartending which probably pay about $300 per night.

Viva L'Arte! 

Hi y'all,

This is taking it a bit to the extreme. Apart from the fact that I am a lousy bartender (I hate giving drinks to strangers  ), I do not want to spread any gift of any kind. If I work I expect to get paid for it. I have followed this thread with interest and will continue to do so, but it is obvious there are no instant solutions to the underlying problem. By the way, Liliana, if you can get me a job waiting tables for USD 300 a night I am very interested, provided I get to keep my clothes on . The best bid I have ever received for table waiting is EUR 50/night plus tips.

Theo Bernards, Dutchman in France

Dear colleagues,

I am glad that the thread is getting more and more interesting.

In order to clarify what I meant by "anger" I used the " " just to say that this is not what I really meant. "Anger" would be the limit and I agree that it is not professional I had never dealt inappropriately with any client or any potential client, even though I think that their proposals were just INSULTING.

Just to be back to the subject and continue the discussion, I had in close contact with some agencies and I know that most of them as some colleagues have highlighted think they are able to make some profit with just a click on "Forward". Most of the time it is a long chain of subcontracts that leads to such an offer to the end-line translator.

In addition, we can't just accept the rates that they just may offer. Let's say that they offer a rate of $0.02. If you translate 2000 word a day then you will be earning $5/hour. This is less than the minimum hourly rate in most of the countries.

If some colleagues think that they can accept such a rate, then I don't have any problem with that, providing that they are ready to provide a high quality that meets the standards. We have ethics of our profession. You can't tell the client "you will get what you paid for". The ethics of translation bind the transltor to commit him/herself to deliver the best translation he/she can.

If these colleagues are ready to accept these rates and commit themselves to a good level of translation, I personally don't have any problem with that. If on the other hand, it becomes just an industry where nobody cares about anything but money. I think I will start looking for a career in another field.

Sofiene

Are you sure? That’s $200 a week and $10,400 a year. I am looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country and out of 197 countries only 20 make the cut of $10,400/year.

While criteria may slightly differ making comparisons difficult, perhaps we should double check income data not in terms of the number of countries (ca. 10%) but the size of the population.

The world's average income - total world income divided by total number of people - is about $7,000. Still, only about 19 percent of the world's population lives in countries with per capita incomes at least this high: http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2007/10/07/average_earnings_worldwide/

 

 

The other pole is the group of 500 million people whose income exceeds $11,500. … Combined, they account for 13% of the world's population: http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/income.php

If you don’t trust numbers, check for yourself selected details here: http://www.worldsalaries.org/. I have looked at Polish salaries there (2006) and they do look credible. 

So, while it’s neat to have a forum for a constant venting of First World frustrations, it’s also good, especially on occasions such as Thanksgiving or Christmas, to remember that an overwhelming majority of people live outside the First World and, interestingly, very few (if any) have ever contributed, either directly or indirectly, to either of the 20 threads on the topic under discussion.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2001/12/wade.htm

Have a nice Sunday!

Jacek

So, while it’s neat to have a forum for a constant venting of First World frustrations, it’s also good, especially on occasions such as Thanksgiving or Christmas, to remember that an overwhelming majority of people live outside the First World and, interestingly, very few (if any) have ever contributed, either directly or indirectly, to either of the 20 threads on the topic under discussion.

I wonder how common it is for the population in those lower bands to have access to the education, literature, connectivity, ICT hardware, and other resources that are necessary in order to provide quality translations. In other words, how relevant are they really to the issue of translation rates?

Hi, David.  I would gladly work for free but for  the Salvation Army not for Corp World.  Maybe I will.

Cheers.

Liliana  

First, I would like to reiterate what I mean when I make statements like this one:

Originally written by Jacek Krankowski on November 21, 2008 4:17 PM Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 21, 2008 4:00 PM When we approve cheap job offers we are saying that it is ok That's why I would never approve them. I don't care about that kind of high, fast, traffic ....

I mean that professionally I operate in a world far away from the Web. For my purposes I call it the "real world" where I talk to direct clients who not only know what they want but they can assess the products they buy, where I meet with colleagues who graduated either from the same university or the same department, etc. etc. So, bear in mind, I do not operate where the First and the Third Worlds meet.

Having grown up in the Second World, though, I now go on to your question

Originally written by Thor Kottelin on November 23, 2008 10:31 AM I wonder how common it is for the population in those lower bands to have access to the education, literature, connectivity, ICT hardware, and other resources that are necessary in order to provide quality translations.

Which exactly of the "lower bands" do you mean? The second 20% from the top? Note that it is the top 20% (19% more precisely) that makes the annual $7,000 cut. That means that even in the top 20% of the world's population there are people who make $7,000 a year. Poland for one was for many years after the fall of communism (1989) one of the countries where the average national salary expressed in $ was under 7,000. (Now it is $12,000) Did, say, 10 years ago Poland have access to the education, literature, connectivity, ICT hardware, and other resources that are necessary in order to provide quality translations? I bet it did. Was it fair for a translator to live on $500 a month back then? I can probably find old posts of mine putting that figure rather around $5,000 a month because I know that that's what my contractors were making then. So, for the record, I am all for the average translation rate being $0.20 instead of $0.02. What I am trying to do here is put things in perspective. Even in the second 20% GDP band from the top, I am sure there are countries that offer access to the education, literature, connectivity, ICT hardware, and other resources that are necessary in order to provide quality translations. And no, translators in those countries should not be making $500 a month. They problem is, I understand, that many of them do. Shall I open a new thread asking how we all participate in transferring income to those poorer countries from where we live? Like, when we see a swimming pool for EUR 50, will we say "Oh no, the translation of the manual alone on this item is worth EUR 100. Let me give you EUR 150 for this swimming pool, provided you forward the balance to the translators"?

Jacek

That would seem somewhat similar to the activities of e.g. Fairtrade Labelling Organizations International.

Hello.  It is perhaps true that there is a free market which sometimes works: that the prices are regulated by the market if you do not poison them by escalating the  profit quest.  What really bothers me is the  companies in well developed countries that give job assignments for all languages they need to a company in an X country where the rates are on the level of $0.01/w  and these companies then are trying to give those jobs to the people living in such countries, where probably the lowest rent is now $1,500 a month. How many, let's say, Norwegian translators can you find in countries where you pay $200 rent a month?

Yes, this is crazy, also in terms of security. A big business may entrust their confidential documents to a major translation service provider which has an office in the same Western city. Then, at the end of a long chain of subtracted value, third-world companies may email those same documents around the world in their desperate attempts to find people who will translate for 10–20% of the price the end client pays.

Thanks for the link!

I came across the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade movement for the first time in Italy (e.g.: http://www.carta.org/articoli/1584). Here is a Polish website listing dozens of such organizations around the world: http://www.sprawiedliwyhandel.pl/linki/drobne.html. Interestingly, wherever you need justice, you have to resort to a movement because the existing mechanisms won't take care of the problem by themselves...

I volunteer to run Gaeta's Fair Trade shop three days a week. Everything there is bought from the farmers who produce the stuff: coffee, tea, other edibles and the artisans who make the objects we sell: bags, wooden sculpures; I tell you there are so many beautiful things.

But, as it is often the case, " noi ci suoniamo e noi ci cantiamo", we play and we sing: we, reds and greens, sell the merchandise and we buy the merchandise. The rest of the people, and the many tourists that come in summertime for seabathing, prefer to buy much costlier stuff in regular shops, stuff that is mostly made by machines and incredibily dinky and ugly. We live in a cheap world, friends, make no mistake about that, and a cruel world.

Hi Jacek,

I really like the numbers and I liked so much your statistics. I just want to remind you that those numbers include also all the kids and all the jobless. So when you talk about the income per capita we are not really talking about how much the active population is earning.

I talked about the minmum wage (which is generally fixed in accordance with the occupation) and I don't think that translation -as an occupation that requires a lot of qualification- will have the lowest minmum wage.

You can go on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_minimum_wage and you will find more details about the minimum wage per country. At least 80 countries have a minmum wage of higher than $5, given the current rate of the US $.

Sofiene

How come we look at the same table and come to different conclusions?

This thread, or one like it, should be made sticky and provide a forum for comment on all posted jobs so that there may be a modicum of consensus on how to respond to such ads.

I've just seen one for "Audio translation" offering £1.40 per audio minute for translation of an hour of audio files. As 1 hour may be up to 10k words, that's £84 for 10k words, or less than 1 penny per word!! (£0.0084, about €0.0095 or $0.014).

Never mind the fact that audio translation takes a lot longer than text translation and that inherent audio quality, accents & other problems are yet to be defined, I am astounded to see that at the time of writing, the poster already has 11 bids and climbing!

I BUY audio translation and I can tell you it is worth MANY TIMES the rate offered. However, without a forum where we can quickly and easily share experience, comment and opinion on every job (with a link from every job post), we are undermining our own profession by allowing the unprepared/naive among us to get screwed, while lowering the perceived market rate and undermining the profession in the process.

Originally written by Kevin Solan on November 7, 2009 10:17 AM This thread, or one like it, should be made sticky and provide a forum for comment on all posted jobs so that there may be a modicum of consensus on how to respond to such ads. [...]

I have advocated that for a long time. There has to be pressure exerted on these agencies. If the thread were sticky, and not open to all, comments by translators could be left so this rates issue is publicly addressed by individual translators.

I don't understand why nobody rushes to agree to this.

Originally written by Kevin Solan on November 7, 2009 4:17 PM This thread, or one like it, should be made sticky and provide a forum for comment on all posted jobs so that there may be a modicum of consensus on how to respond to such ads.

The site statistics page shows that the average daily number of jobs posted on the Job Board (for the last 30 days) is 50.

So you propose to run a thread in which 50 new jobs will be discussed day after day? We already have several threads along these lines, but they get started every few weeks or months, whenever someone needs to vent their anger, and they basically evolve around one specific job posting. So we now want to multiply that by 50 on a daily basis? In addition to the Hall of Fame and Shame?

And what would that modicum of consensus on how to respond to such ads be for freelancers bidding from China and those bidding from Norway? (In a poll we ran, 38% said "Yes, I often translate into a foreign language") How many times can we repeat, in how many threads which apparently no one reads, that whenever Norwegians are unhappy with $0.10/word, the Chinese are happy with $0.01/word?

Do Chinese and Norwegian teachers or taxi drivers have a modicum of consensus on how much to charge their customers? This is already absurd as it is. Let's not compound the absurd.

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 7, 2009 4:44 PM.; ....If the thread were sticky, and not open to all...

??? ???

If the thread were sticky, and not open to all, comments by translators could be left so this rates issue is publicly addressed by individual translators.

I literally don't understand what you area saying in the "not open to all" part.  could you explain, Jane?

Maxi

Originally written by Jacek K. on November 7, 2009 5:08 PM So you propose to run a thread in which 50 new jobs will be discussed day after day? We already have several threads along these lines

With respect, Jacek, considering the only thread I found on the subject had not been contributed to for almost a year, I think your point is irrelevant. For the majority of ads that do not raise any concern, no-one would post about them.

they get started every few weeks or months, whenever someone needs to vent their anger, and they basically evolve around one specific job posting.

That would be even better - a specific thread for a specific ad. At the moment though, they just get swallowed up in the mass of other threads and cannot be specifically back-linked to/from the ad concerned.

So we now want to multiply that by 50 on a daily basis? In addition to the Hall of Fame and Shame?

The HFS is entirely different. And as you pointed out above, they get started every few weeks or months, so rather than being "multiplied by 50" (why the need to exaggerate?) or "in addition" (to which I see no particular problem anyway - isn't every new thread or post "in addition"?), they would just be better organised.

And what would that modicum of consensus on how to respond to such ads be for freelancers bidding from China and those bidding from Norway? ...

Again, I don't see how that point is relevant. An ad for audio translation from French to Norwegian will hardly get much response from China. Otherwise a lot of Norwegians would have to change their rates. Or their job.

Do Chinese and Norwegian teachers or taxi drivers have a modicum of consensus on how much to charge their customers?

Within their particuar markets and specialisations, of course they do.

This is already absurd as it is. Let's not compound the absurd.

I have the distinct impression you simply didn't understand the initial suggestion. And of course, anyone who isn't interested in contributing doesn't need to.

Yes, I will explain. In the same way the Hall of Fame and Shame is not open to "just anyone".

BUT, it would be SPECIFICALLY targeted at allowing the posting of comment re terms (price or deadline or subject matter) proposed or the wording of the offers. Sometimes the Terms are awful, and sometimes one can't even understand the offers.

The Hall of Shame and Fame is fine for post-facto commenting on "bad experiences". It is not a forum for SPECIFICALLY allowing comments by responders - those who answer offers -  to comment on the inappropriateness of some aspect or other of the Job Offer before or "pre facto"....that is where I feel more comments are needed.

Now, is that clearer?

////

Jacek, my friend....could you possibly discuss merits and demerits at a higher level rather than drilling down so much? I know you can provide valuable contributions to this discussion without being so drilled down....

Originally written by Kevin Solan on November 7, 2009 5:59 PM ... considering the only thread I found on the subject had not been contributed to for almost a year....

here's one running thread among others with recent discussions on the topic http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/MegaBBS/thread-view.asp?threadid=14586&start=51

Nothing prevents us from posting new and recurring threads in the Jobs, Outsourcers & Payment forum about specific job offers or resuscitating old ones (like this one), and that might be more effective than a single running forum since people tend to check newer threads rather spend time searching for older ones not shown on the "Quick look at TC" page. I've even been known to bump them up somewhat articificially when I felt such threads were disappearing too fast from that page! We can simply individually and collectively decide that whenever we find a job offer that isn't "up to par", we'll systematically start a thread about it or resurrect an old one on the same topic (as I and some others have been doing).

One alternative could be to have a new dedicated forum entitled "Comments on job offers", with a possible link automatically shown on each of the job offers (though that would be a decision for Anatoly to make - and I have no idea whether that would even be feasible?

But such threads must absolutely be "open to all" (unlike the HF&S), otherwise we're only preaching to the already convinced among the small "club" of usual posters and seasoned translators, while those who need the insight/advice/warning the most are the less experienced without access to "closed" fora.) 

... cannot be specifically back-linked to/from the ad concerned.

From what I understand, we're not supposed to refer openly to any specific person/outsourcer in fora other than HF&S. Or am I mistaken? But enough info can be given in our posts so others can easily find the job offer concerned.

dominique

PS @Kevin: I also cursed my screen when I read the offer you discussed earlier!

The Hall of Fame and Shame is NOT open to everyone. And I think that direct comments from bidders (translators) ON bad job offers should be the same.

And the comments by translators on job offers are NOT ONLY warnings, they are comments that I believe should be DIRECTED to the agencies for all BIDDERS to see but not the whole world.  They might be just as negative as the HFS comments, so some restrictions are a good idea.

It is perfectly possible that an agency with a poor job offer may be able to IMPROVE the job offer, CLARIFY the job offer, INCREASE THE RATE on a job offer..or whatever. Ergo, it is not only for criticizing but also for requesting clarification BEFORE bidding!

As I said, this is not about "warnings". We already have that. My idea is about allowing BIDDERS to make SPECIFIC COMMENTS re SPECIFIC JOB OFFERS.

PS @Kevin: I also cursed my screen when I read the offer you discussed earlier!

And who heard you?

I think the point needs to made as to WHY such a specific forum should exist. Who would best be served by other peoples' comments on a particular job post?

Certainly there is an argument as to why there should NOT be such a link from a job post: No-one wants prospective job posters to be discouraged from posting or to get the impression that rates & conditions are being set by consensus by service providers.

But TC should decide who the job-posting forum is ultimately there to serve. We can all accept that a potential buyer will try to pay under what they regard to be the "going rate", and if you really need the work, you may be prepared to take the job at the conditions offered. I have no issue with these posts (for what it's worth, they're ALL under my going rate and I've never got a job out of this forum). So a certain "elasticity" in conditions is certainly tolerable and a comments thread should not prevent fair-ish job posters from having a go anyway. In this case, I believe it would serve both buyers and service providers.

However, we all know that many translators can go through periods where you are obliged for financial purposes to accept any job that comes along no matter how badly it is paid. Some job posters will bank on such cases to be able to buy at ridiculously low rates. The mere existence of a linked comment thread would encourage job posters to think twice about the conditions they are offering. In this kind of scenario, it is the successful bidder that comes away with the most to gain (and the poster keeps their reputation intact).

A linked comment thread could also be useful and informative to the job posters themselves, whereby they may be prepared to review their conditions and even their own client offer.

Also, as you say Dominique, some job conditions are not very clear (in the one cited, you will still have bidders believing they are going to get PAID £1.40 / minute - I still can't believe there are already 18 bidders for that job! Do they know it's worth less than €0.01 per word? If so, I wish they'd contact ME!). A quick look at what others have commented could clear that up for everybody.

A simpler option might be: Considering a job offer is generally only valid until the job has been assigned, why not make comments possible through a simple, temporary chat format that "dies" once the job has been assigned? It could even be restricted solely to the "Bidding" page, i.e., targeted at members who are seriously interested, with anonymous temporary names (so eventual bidders are not identified & can ask/comment without compromising their bid).

@Jane - I've just noticed you've summed up most of my points a lot more succinctly. Thank you!

Of course, with a temporary "chat" format, any negative comments would not remain "on the record" like the HFS.

Originally written by Thor Kottelin on November 21, 2008 8:01 AM If, according to TC's rate statistics, a job offers less than the average rate, perhaps that job could be relegated, in some way, to a "peanuts department", where it would be highly non-preferred in terms of e.g. visibility, and perhaps also be accompanied by some kind of warning. ... On the other hand, I actually think that posters should not be permitted to make any offers whatsoever.

If I understand you correctly, Thor, you are asking on the one hand for TC to pre-sort job offers according to the rate proposed by the agency and on the other hand you believe that agencies should not be allowed to propose a rate for any job. Aren't those two procedures likely to be mutually exclusive?

The "relegation" to a "peanuts department" amounts to a classification of translators according to their price expectations, i.e.  "high-end translators", "midmarket translators" or "low-end translators". Agencies could be instructed to direct their jobs to translators in the appropriate market segment.

Or, rather than calling it "peanuts department", it might be better to separate us into "full-price translators" and "discount translators" and have two separate job posting areas and instruct agencies to advertise their jobs in the appropriate area.

"Discount translators" would, of course, include all those who ostensibly charge above-average rates but offer discounts for repetitions, 100% and fuzzy matches, something that a real "full-price translator" would, of course, never do.

Just as in a true "discount retailer" where the wares are stacked up roughly on pallets on the floor to emphasise the cut-price aspect, TC could make the "discount translator" section look a little tacky, devoid of all software snick-snack, whereas the "full-price translator" section would have the software equivalent of hand-polished apples and tropical fruit on display.

We have to do something to relieve the "full-price translators" amongst us from all these awful feelings of anger and of being insulted by being - quel horreur! - mistaken for and addressed as humble "discount translators"!

Derek

Cut-price "Discounter" model for translator classification: 

Thank you, Derek, for having solved this for us. I am glad that in your picture above, no one is shopping in the damn discount area. I am sure that together we can fix the translation market too! Keep up the good job!

Jacek

Originally written by Kevin Solan on November 7, 2009 4:17 PM ...that's £84 for 10k words, or less than 1 penny per word!! [...] I am astounded to see that at the time of writing, the poster already has 11 bids and climbing!

Originally written by dominique f. on September 26, 2009 8:31 PM here's one more job offer that made my teeth grind (as we say in France) tonight... [...] That's 0.026/0.03 US cents. Don't even want to make the conversion in euros! At least she's not demanding TRADXX! And this person is from the UK, not China or India... Couldn't bite my tongue this time and I sent her a shame-on-you email. (51 replies, excluding mine...) df

Of course one advantage of threads like this one could be to deter people from further bidding, so that in Kevin's example, only the ususal 11 people would bid the moment the job is posted and then, like in that supermarket shown by Derek, the crowd would refrain from flooding the damn discount area, so the job poster would remain just with his initial 11 bids, or 51 in dominique's example. Everybody else, instead of bidding, would flock to threads like this one to discuss further improvements to the market reality. Like maybe shutting down the Internet?

Originally written by Jacek K. on November 8, 2009 7:28 AM Everybody else, instead of bidding, would flock to threads like this one to discuss further improvements to the market reality.

I concede that I had an advantage in parodying the situation because I was able to simplify what is in reality a complex situation.

My picture showed the clean, orderly appearance of a discount retailer at 6 a.m. after the shelf stockers have finished their work and the public has not yet been admitted. The parallel situation in the freelance discount translator's working corner of his/her living room is similar - the cleared desk, the glistening computer screen, the freshly sharpened pencils, the three miscellaneous second-hand dictionaries, the silent sanitized old dial telephone waiting for the day's business to commence.

 Later, that same day, after the peak rush hour, the discount retailer looks completely different - ripped open boxes are scattered about everywhere, the floor is dirty and there are traces of squashed bananas trodden into the tiles, the coffee that escaped from a couple of torn bags, the pile of biscuit packets that has been knocked over.  In the freelance discount translator's working corner the situation is similar. The 3 cents/word job is not quite completed, three half-emptied coffee cups stand around, pencil sharpenings floating on the cold coffee remains. There are biscuit crumbs on the keyboard, greasy fingerprints on the computer screen, an opened tin of corned beef stands on the table with some bread rolls from yesterday. The half-dry contents of the washing machine are piled up on the ironing board. The fax machine has run out of paper and is making a plaintive beeping noise and somewhere in the back a baby is crying.

Long gone is the romance of the clicking daisy-wheel printer, the glare of the green-phosphor monitor, the smell of sealing-wax on the large registered envelope ready to catch the last post for the day! Ah, those were the days! 

Unluckily, the world of the full-price translator is closed to me but I can half-shut my eyes and imagine Harrod's delicatessen department - the smoked salmon and caviar, the bottles of Bollinger, the lace handkerchiefs, the pretty little boxes of scented pot pourri ... 

These two working environments are worlds apart. I am beginning to see the logic behind the proposals to separate the job offers - a dark, obscure corner for the discount jobs, bright lights and marble columns for the full-price jobs. It all makes some kind of twisted sense!

Derek

Working environment for full-price translator:

SUGGESTIONS RE HOW THIS COULD BE DONE:

Comments by Bidders on Job Posted

Type of Comment:

* RE: general

* RE: rate(s)

* RE: deadline/delivery date

* RE: other (language combination, place of work, qualifications requested, etc.)

Comments to date about this job offer: 10

Please note bidders: comments to job posters will expire three days after the job is posted. Only bidders may make comments to job posters and only fellow  bidders may see them. Comments will expire when the job posted is closed.

** Click to see comments posted by other bidders.

** Remove my comment/edit my comment.

** Save my comment until job post is closed by job poster.

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 3:46 PM Type of Comment: * RE: general * RE: rate(s) * RE: deadline/delivery date * RE: other (language combination, place of work, qualifications requested, etc.)

I have a question: What possible interest could I have in reading other people's comments about rates and delivery dates of a particular job on top of all the general stuff that already litters the forums here?

What I would like to see would be the contents of other people's bids.

Open bidding, just like at a real reverse auction. that is the way to go! Then when I see a half dozen 3 cent bids, I can exit immediately,

When I see only 7 cent bids, I can send off my 5 or 6 cent bid if I really want the job.

Derek

Whatever, Derek. I give up. Who is littering? 

Originally written by Derek Thornton on November 8, 2009 5:20 PM Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 3:46 PM Type of Comment: * RE: general * RE: rate(s) * RE: deadline/delivery date * RE: other (language combination, place of work, qualifications requested, etc.) I have a question: What possible interest could I have in reading other people's comments about rates and delivery dates of a particular job on top of all the general stuff that already litters the forums here?

Perhaps by having the comments posted under the respective offers within the Job Board itself?

This site's policy has always been to keep the forums and the Job Board as separate areas.
Many users who visit the forums never check the Job Board, and vice versa.
(The same is true for TCTerms, BTW).

Therefore it makes little sense to discuss specific job offers in a forum.

IMHO, it would be simpler and more relevant to comment on each offer under that speciic offer, on the same page.
Thus only people interested would read and contribute comments.

Originally written by Laurent Chiacchierini on November 8, 2009 4:30 PM Therefore it makes little sense to discuss specific job offers in a forum.

To me, it makes even less sense to read a discussion of specific job offers at all. Why would I, as a discount translator, be interested in reading all those totally predictable negative comments about low rates for the jobs in which I might be interested?

To me there is clearly another way to divide up translators. There are those, and I am one of them, who believe that the market will regulate translation prices and delivery times and there are others who appear to believe that translators should be able to manipulate prices and delivery times to their own advantage by restricting free trade.

Until the forum provides for a separation of jobs to suit those two camps I fail to see the point in all this.

What kind of comments are we going to read? Expressions of anger from all you full-price translators at being insulted by having to read low-priced job offers? Complaints about the short delivery times required? Who is going to take any notice of that stuff? Nobody!

Or is it just intended to be a safety valve for all that pent-up anger with the illusion that somebody is actually going to react to it? We have that already in the general forums.

Is the idea perhaps to shame the cheap job offerers so that they realize the error of their ways and raise their prices, extend their deadlines and insist on hiring only translators with PhDs? That is not going to happen, folks, you are kidding yourselves!

Apart from some translators, nobody on this planet has the slightest interest in raising the price of translations. They are already a serious cost item and many hundreds of people are working full time to remove the human element as completely as they can.

To me, it is a complete mystery why otherwise sensible people cannot any see further than the end of their noses. This is a dying trade and we have the privilege of being present at its death throes.

The only rational course of action is either to re-tool to produce cheap translations quickly ourselves or change trades. There must be something else we can do with our talents - like generating original web content or ghost writing! There is no longer any big money in translation jobs, not those that get advertised on forums like this one at least.

Originally written by Laurent Chiacchierini on November 8, 2009 4:30 PM IMHO, it would be simpler and more relevant to comment on each offer under that specific offer, on the same page. Thus only people interested would read and contribute comments.

Well, for what it is worth, I for one am against it. It sounds like an exercise in futility to me.

Derek

Originally written by Derek Thornton on November 8, 2009 7:11 PM Well, for what it is worth, I for one am against it. It sounds like an exercise in futility to me.

Then, just ignore it, like I would do myself, if this were to be implemented.

Perhaps by having the comments posted under the respective offers within the Job Board itself? This site's policy has always been to keep the forums and the Job Board as separate areas. Many users who visit the forums never check the Job Board, and vice versa. (The same is true for TCTerms, BTW).  [...] [END OF QUOTE] Yes,  precisely what I meant! Thank you, Laurent, for clarifying WHERE this might be placed on the site!. Ufa.....[Portuguese for a grunt of relief after a laborious task].

Originally written by Laurent Chiacchierini on November 8, 2009 6:17 PM Then, just ignore it, like I would do myself, if this were to be implemented.

You know that is unrealistic, Laurent. If it was as easy as that then the people who are getting all worked up about low prices and short delivery times would have done just that with the ads they don't like. 

Derek

Originally written by Derek Thornton on November 8, 2009 7:25 PM Originally written by Laurent Chiacchierini on November 8, 2009 6:17 PM Then, just ignore it, like I would do myself, if this were to be implemented.   You know that is unrealistic, Laurent.

I assure you it is perfectly realistic.

I for one never visit the Job Board.

Originally written by Derek Thornton on November 8, 2009 7:11 PM Is the idea perhaps to shame the cheap job offerers so that they realize the error of their ways and raise their prices, extend their deadlines and insist on hiring only translators with PhDs?

BUT OF COURSE, Derek! I already tried this with this street vendor in the Old Delhi market:

I told him to raise his prices ($1=47 rupees) because it bothered me to pay only a couple of dollars for a kilogram of each of all those goodies. He promised to look into my proposal and we will now take it to an Internet forum to discuss details so that all these other guys around him can learn from it too:

If you take a closer look, there is a translation agency on the second floor of one of these buildings above. As far as I know, they may object to hiring only translators with PhDs, but hey, we can always try to persuade them!

Jacek

I assure you it is perfectly realistic. I for one never visit the Job Board.

That makes two of us.  Occasionally the agencies who frequent those boards visit me.  I have only accepted work from two of them in all these years.  Neither of them has paid me.  One owes $250 and the other $2000.

Maxi

I sometimes look at jobs on the job board. The point is to improve things and discourage bad behavior. Every time I have ever tried to mention any improvments at all, the discussions get swamped down in naysaying.

I have to say that in this case, Laurent was quick to see what I meant and even clarified where the function I suggested might go. I thank him for that.

As for the rest of you recent posters, fine. WHO THE HELL CARES,  RIGHT?

Lookit [American slang], I get my jobs because people come to me, I don't go to them. That's what happens when one is positioned as I am. But that doesn't mean I don't care about others.

After all, I was a beginner once. I only had two or three years of experience once. And there comes a time in one's translation life, just as in any profession, where the first-level of just doing it, gets, well, boring....I thought making suggestions for improvement that might help others might inspire more positive comments. Obviously, I was wrong. The naysayers and "nattering nabobs of negativism" can post more text using swamping techniques to just wipe out anything positive.

I wonder what happened to Kevin? 

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 8:47 PM WHO THE HELL CARES ....

THE MARKET DOES!

Originally written by Laurent Chiacchierini on November 8, 2009 5:30 PM IMHO, it would be simpler and more relevant to comment on each offer under that speciic offer, on the same page. Thus only people interested would read and contribute comments.

I think that is key, Laurent. And as Jane added, as comments relate to specific offers, they need not be kept on public record after the job has been taken down. So no further packing of the forums, which seems to be the most serious objection raised so far (apart from the whole exercise being a waste of time).

Probably the greatest concern I would have myself would be: How are job posters likely to take to it? As a (rare) job poster myself, I would not have any objection, but perhaps not everyone thinks the same way. The only disadvantage I could imagine is that they would feel less inclined to post (but not prohibited from posting) ridiculously bad rates/conditions (for a particular job in a particular market). If that's a problem, I'm sure it's one we would all quite willingly live with.

Maybe a wider survey of opinion would be useful.

Originally written by Derek Thornton on November 8, 2009 7:11 PM all you full-price translators... insulted by having to read low-priced job offers? ...Who is going to take any notice of that stuff? Nobody! To me, it is a complete mystery why otherwise sensible people cannot any see further than the end of their noses. This is a dying trade and we have the privilege of being present at its death throes. The only rational course of action is either to re-tool to produce cheap translations quickly ourselves or change trades. There must be something else we can do with our talents... Well, for what it is worth, I for one am against it. It sounds like an exercise in futility to me.

Derek, I'm not sure why you bother to get involved, especially with this level of cynicism. Why don't you let whoever would like to introduce a tool they feel may be useful do just that? You wouldn't be obliged to use it.

As for the free market and re-tooling, I agree with you entirely - which is another reason the tool would be useful: several variants in the translation industry are developing very fast. I for one am very involved and very excited about them. And this is all the more reason for many of us to have the facility to advise and be advised.

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 8:47 PM I wonder what happened to Kevin?

I was cowering behind the sofa, Jane

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 7:47 PM I sometimes look at jobs on the job board. The point is to improve things and discourage bad behavior. Every time I have ever tried to mention any improvements at all, the discussions get swamped down in naysaying.

I had a feeling that you might not be able to stay objective for long, Jane. It is not going to be much of a discussion if only those who agree with you participate in it, is it?

I never go to the job board, it comes to me. Without doing anything to trigger them, I regularly get e-mails telling me that a new job has been posted, come and look at it. There aren't too many of them and some of the job offers are good for a laugh, and thus tend to brighten my day, so I have not undertaken anything to stop them. Others seem perfectly reasonable and earlier I did apply for some of the better jobs but was never successful and never had any feedback.

It never occurred to me to get angry about the prices, though, nor did I ever feel insulted or had the urge to post comments to tell the job poster what he or she was doing wrong.

The thought crossed my mind that you were trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 7:47 PM I have to say that in this case, Laurent was quick to see what I meant and even clarified where the function I suggested might go. I thank him for that.

I could have done that too but I am not in a position to make such clarifications. All that it means to me is that in addition to getting the occasional notification of a new job posting, I would then be getting notifications of all the comments as they were posted and I can do without that additional e-mail traffic. Nobody has mentioned whether it would be opt-out or opt-in but I feared the worst.

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 7:47 PM As for the rest of you recent posters, fine. WHO THE HELL CARES,  RIGHT?

I would have thought that the number of non-caring members who take the trouble to reply to you on a Sunday afternoon must be quite small. I do care, if that is any help. 

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 7:47 PM I thought making suggestions for improvement that might help others might inspire more positive comments. Obviously, I was wrong. The naysayers and "nattering nabobs of negativism" can post more text using swamping techniques to just wipe out anything positive.

Has it not occurred to you, Jane, that you might not have made your case convincingly? What exactly is it you are trying to improve and how is yet another place to deposit comments going to improve it? As for negativism, how can I say no in a positive way? It can't be done.

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 7:47 PM I wonder what happened to Kevin?

I imagine that he considers that he has contributed enough for today. He claimed that Jacek didn't understand the initial suggestion; he can add me to the list of those who either did not understand the initial suggestion or did understand it but considered the proposed remedy to be worse than the complaint.

Derek

Originally written by Derek Thornton on November 8, 2009 9:56 PM some of the job offers are good for a laugh, and thus tend to brighten my day

 OF NEGATIVISM

Quoted by Derek: 

Has it not occurred to you, Jane, that you might not have made your case convincingly? What exactly is it you are trying to improve and how is yet another place to deposit comments going to improve it? As for negativism, how can I say no in a positive way? It can't be done.

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 7:47 PM I wonder what happened to Kevin?

Reply: no, it hadn't. It will let job posters know that sometimes their rates are too low, sometimes their jobs don't make sense, sometimes their deadlines are outrageous, sometimes for interpreters they should say where. . It is NOT a forum thing. The point is to encourage job posters i.e. agencies and individuals to behave better. It works as a Feedback on their job posts.

If they see 15 people saying: that rate is simply unacceptable to me. Or something like that, they will think twice about posting that again.  SINCE you do not use the Job Board, why not just refrain from commenting? Or just say why you don't like it and not fill up this forum with all that text that goes on and on, when the Purpose of This Discussion as started by Kevin was another? 

There are those who do use the Job Board. Shouldn't all suggestions for improving anything be taken seriously?

Jacek fills this site with his comments and so do you. How often are they directed at making things better? Huh?

Originally written by Derek Thornton on November 8, 2009 9:56 PM in addition to getting the occasional notification of a new job posting, I would then be getting notifications of all the comments as they were posted and I can do without that additional e-mail traffic.

I totally agree with you, I wouldn't want that either, and I would not advocate further notifications even if you were to comment on the job in it's designated thread, as you would already have the link to the job notification. In fact, if you ignored it completely, you wouldn't even know that any comments had been made. It would not just be "opt-in", it would be "active opt-in" - If you don't actually go there you won't get the info. At least, that's the way I imagine it.

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 10:32 PM If they see 15 people saying: that rate is simply unacceptable to me. Or something like that, they will think twice about posting that again.

Jane,

I thought it was clear a few pages ago that once they see those 15 comments, they will quietly turn to the remaining 25 bidders and award that job to one of them. Is that really that difficult to comprehend?

NO...if all comments are negative, none of the bidders will get it. I mean, if you answer a job post, then leave a comment, since you have to "bid"....

Or it can be changed to: I would have bid but: etc. etc. comments.

I'm done Jacek. You win. You always win. There's no way to get any new ideas flowing here. Just the same old, same old. Tout va bien dans le meilleurs des mondes, or however it was. Why bother with anything new? Why update anythig? Why improve anything? Why not just leave everything as it is and keep putting down any idea? Especially one that supports translators chance to say something to agencies? Oh, no, we mustn't have that, now..

Originally written by Jacek K. on November 8, 2009 10:47 PM I thought it was clear a few pages ago that once they see those 15 comments, they will quietly turn to the remaining 25 bidders and award that job to one of them.

Of course, but those other 25 would also have seen the 15 comments. And if, as I suggested, commenters can choose to be identifiable only under pseudonyms/avatars, they could also be one of the 25.

Is that really that difficult to comprehend?

Is the patronising & down-talking a general rule for these forums?

Originally written by Derek Thornton on November 8, 2009 4:32 PM These two working environments are worlds apart. I am beginning to see the logic behind the proposals to separate the job offers - a dark, obscure corner for the discount jobs, bright lights and marble columns for the full-price jobs. It all makes some kind of twisted sense!

No, Derek, such a division won't work. I am beginning to see what this is all about. It's about the First World finding itself uncomfortable in the company of the the Developing World.

I think that the only solution for the First World is to stop hanging around the same job board as the Developing World. One obvious way to achieve that would to be to set up an organization that would have different objectives than

TranslatorsCafé.com—Directory of Translators, Interpreters and Translation Agencies

TC is thus a directory and not a personal job assistant.

Recently, a few people originating from ProZ.com set up a professional association which was also advertised on this website. I understand that its main objective is to uphold high professional standards among translators. I think that it is up to organizations like that to be selective about their members, job offers, rates, etc. TC, on the other hand, is a cafe' where the whole world meets.

"We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you."

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 10:53 PM I'm done Jacek. You win.

I cannot win, Jane, in a game in which I do not participate. I never visit the Job Board or the HF&S simply because I do not work through the Web. I understand that both those areas have moderators who have been following this discussion and will take up all constructive suggestions with Anatoly. I assure you that your and Kevin's comments are as loudly heard as Derek's and mine.  

I have an admittedly cynical but possibly realistic thought.  It's triggered by an event recently where a member posted an experience with a cheap agency or entity that actually left her with a loss once bank charges were added.  It was at the beginning of her career.  Apparently after posting this tale, several (new, breaking into the field?) translators contacted her privately asking to know about that agency so they could apply for work with it. 

My strange train of thought starts this way.  If an advertisement for a .03 or .05 job goes out there, perhaps only 3 out of 100 people will accept those rates.  It only takes one.  As long as that one person takes the job the agency can make a heck of a profit.  Do you honestly think that they care about what the other 99 people think about them?  Imagine if you can sell 20,000 words at .09/word while paying someone .02 to do the job, that's a profit of $1,400.00 at the price of exchanging a couple of words with a client and a gullible translator.  For that kind of money, does other people's outrage matter?  Seriously?

The thought goes on.  The idea of such low rates used to be inconceivable.  I did my first translation before being fully trained in the early 1970's and got .10/word for it.    Now rates in my neck of the woods are at least between .14 to .20 per word.  The idea of .05 was unthinkable!  But now that I have read so much about these ultra low rates, they are starting to seem real to me.  I'm getting used to the idea.  That worries me.  I don't want anybody to get used to the idea.

The other thought is that we are writing so often about these low rates that an unscrupulous party will say, "Hey, this seems to be done quite a bit.  I think I'll do it too."

What if all this talk about these low rates is actually adding to the problem?  It's a Sunday afternoon kind of mental meandering, but what if?

Just for the heck of it - What if we discussed proper rates, proper relationships between translators, outsourcers, and clients.  What if we discussed advantages and benefits to all parties concerned.  I haven't thought it through 100%.  But would this not set up a contrast that would cast the cheap agencies in a negative light, while legitimizing the upper level of things?

This may be poking around in the dark but I thought I'd throw it out anyway.

Maxi

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 9:32 PM Reply: no, it hadn't. It will let job posters know that sometimes their rates are too low, sometimes their jobs don't make sense, sometimes their deadlines are outrageous, sometimes for interpreters they should say where. . It is NOT a forum thing. The point is to encourage job posters i.e. agencies and individuals to behave better. It works as a Feedback on their job posts. .... Since you do not use the Job Board, why not just refrain from commenting?

I cannot imagine, Jane, where you get the idea that I do not use the Job Board. In my early days here I did bid for a few jobs but checking back, I find that I was successful only once and that developed into a series of follow-up jobs that were never posted here. The other times, mostly I heard nothing at all, or I was told that I would be entered in the database and had a couple of inquiries from one of those that never came to be a job.

I have posted one job on the Job Board that was a complete success. A follow-up job however did not go quite so well.

One thing that I can tell you though, I have no interest in how much translators think they are worth!

In the one job that I posted here, I stated precisely the rate that I was prepared to pay and when I wanted the translation delivered. I would never enter into any correspondence on those subjects, it is take it or leave it. I had 8 bidders, all equally qualified, all did a test translation for me, more or less error-free. In the end I chose the one with the nicest profile picture.

The translator usually does not know the background to either the price or the delivery date and has different interests anyway. I fail to see why it should be a subject for discussion or even comment. I am willing to haggle with a willing partner if I can but not with somebody who tells me that they have "a rate" and insists that they do not intend to go lower than that.

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 9:32 PM If they see 15 people saying: that rate is simply unacceptable to me. Or something like that, they will think twice about posting that again.

I very much doubt that. I just cannot imagine that any job poster would be fascinated at the prospect of entering into a correspondence with, or even hearing from, 15 people who had decided not to bid!

What the job offerer needs is one bidder who accepts the conditions without question and is ideally qualified. If several people meet those requirements then it is necessary to find some deciding characteristic, even if it is only a pretty face. The 15 comments from non-bidders would go straight into the trash can, I feel sure about that. 

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 9:32 PM Or just say why you don't like it and not fill up this forum with all that text that goes on and on, when the Purpose of This Discussion as started by Kevin was another?

I am mortified to hear that my contributions bored you, Jane. To be honest with you, I sometimes use the forums to practice constructing long, convoluted English sentences. Follow Laurent's advice and ignore whatever you don't want to read!

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 9:32 PM Shouldn't all suggestions for improving anything be taken seriously?

Please believe me, Jane - I take you seriously but this is not a matter of life and death.

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 9:32 PM Jacek fills this site with his comments and so do you. How often are they directed at making things better? Huh?

You might have missed my earlier point. I believe passionately in not fixing things that ain't broke! I cannot see how accumulating unsolicited comments directed at the job offerer is going to increase translation word rates or reduce scheduling pressures. As for site filling: Jacek is a notorious site filler, my efforts pale in comparison with his but thank you for the compliment anyway, I do my best.

Derek

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 8, 2009 11:19 PM What if all this talk about these low rates is actually adding to the problem?

Considering everything we say on here is already out there on Google (yup, the whole thread, just 2 hours latency), you do have a very strong point (I'm surprised these forums are not <no-follow> meta-tagged, in the interest of its members). And ultimately, what you are suggesting (talking higher rates/better conditions) is what we are trying to do!

If we DO all have to change career, where will TC be?

Originally written by Kevin Solan on November 8, 2009 8:17 PM Derek, I'm not sure why you bother to get involved, especially with this level of cynicism. Why don't you let whoever would like to introduce a tool they feel may be useful do just that? You wouldn't be obliged to use it.

I got involved because I am a Job Board user. Not every day but I have used it occasionally, both looking for work and for giving out work. I don't see what you are suggesting as a tool, I see it as an attempt to find a way to express an objection to the working of normal market forces. That is about as futile as trying to turn back the tide.

The supply of translation labor is increasing rapidly, there is no way to stem it. A price fall is the natural consequence. The number of agencies out there competing for work is also presumably not decreasing. If you persuade one agency to pay more, they will have to charge their clients more or forego some of their margin. If they do that, either another agency will take the clients away from them or the agency offering the job will eventually go bankrupt. 

Originally written by Kevin Solan on November 8, 2009 8:17 PM As for the free market and re-tooling, I agree with you entirely - which is another reason the tool would be useful: several variants in the translation industry are developing very fast. I for one am very involved and very excited about them. And this is all the more reason for many of us to have the facility to advise and be advised.

Do I understand you to be telling me that you want this comment facility so that you can advise bidders not to bid for certain jobs because you do not approve of the job ad? What you are advocating surely amounts to a computer-aided boycott, doesn't it? To be effective, you would have to persuade all potential bidders without exception not to bid. One gets through and they have beaten you. If that is the idea then I like it even less!

Derek

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 10:53 PM NO...if all comments are negative, none of the bidders will get it.

I don't get it. In my example, there were 15 negative comments (whether accompanied by bids or not) and 25 normal bids. Why would none of the "normal" bidders get the job if they are all happy with $0.04, $0.03, $0.02 or $0.01 per word? Should the TC admin analyze the 15 First World comments and bar the Developing World bidders from getting the job against the wish of the job poster?

Originally written by Kevin Solan on November 8, 2009 11:37 PM If we DO all have to change career, where will TC be?

I hope exactly where it is now, at least its discussion forums I mean. I happen to believe in portofolio working (Post #188391), at least since J. Grigg wrote “Portfolio Working: A Practical Guide to Thriving in the Changing Workplace” back in 1997.

Originally written by Derek Thornton on November 7, 2009 11:59 PM Do I understand you to be telling me that you to want this comment facility so that you can advise bidders not to bid for certain jobs because you do not approve of the job ad? What you are advocating surely amounts to a computer-aided boycott, doesn't it? If that is the idea then I like it even less!

I have been following this thread with interest - thank you Derek for making such sense - and I am at a loss to understand what is intended. Jane suggests opening comments to bidders. Now, as I understand the word, a bidder is somebody who has already made a bid. Why would somebody want to say: hey, I think this job stinks if they have already bid for it? And if only bidders can make and access comments, how are they going to convince themselves not to bid?

Jonathan

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 8, 2009 11:19 PM The idea of such low rates used to be inconceivable.  I did my first translation before being fully trained in the early 1970's and got .10/word for it.    Now rates in my neck of the woods are at least between .14 to .20 per word.  The idea of .05 was unthinkable!  But now that I have read so much about these ultra low rates, they are starting to seem real to me.  I'm getting used to the idea.  That worries me.

Hmm, I wonder why this is so. I will skip all the threads in which we have touched on the causes (e.g., Inflation goes up, up, up and translation prices go down, down, down ) and reach straight for literature.

From the 1979 Doris Lessing's Canopus in Argos: Archives, a futuristic history of our planet:

"Already in the eighth decade every government on Shiksta was preoccupied, often fearfully and secretively, with the consequences of mass unemployment, and particularly among the young. By then it was evident that the new (and often unforseen) technologies would make mass unemployment inevitable everywhere, even without the world economic crisis which was due mostly to the spending of the wealth and resources of the planet primarily on wars and the preparations for wars: inevitable even if the population was not increasing at such a rate."

Why would none of the "normal" bidders get the job if they are all happy with $0.04, $0.03, $0.02 or $0.01 per word?

Since the bottom line at TC is $0.05 and any job below that may be removed without notice, you'll have to up your examples by 4 cents, Jacek, to $0.08, $0.07, $0.06 or $0.05.      Or did you mean proofreading, which personally, I prefer to charge by the hour?

Maxi

Agencies who work with translators accepting such low rates sound rather suicidal to me.

A translation for USD 0.03 per word cannot be a quality translation.

[

I have been following this thread with interest - thank you Derek for making such sense - and I am at a loss to understand what is intended. Jane suggests opening comments to bidders. Now, as I understand the word, a bidder is somebody who has already made a bid. Why would somebody want to say: hey, I think this job stinks if they have already bid for it? And if only bidders can make and access comments, how are they going to convince themselves not to bid?

Jonathan

I was trying to be conservative. I don't think, for instance,that anonymous users of the site should be allowed to post comments. Open to everyone who is a known quantity. Other than that, I really would like comments to be open to everyone who is a non-anonymous member.

Call it something else. Pre-bidding comments by non-anonymous TC site professional translaltors. Open to all...

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 9, 2009 1:43 AM the bottom line at TC is $0.05 and any job below that may be removed without notice

May. But will it?

Originally written by John Fossey on November 9, 2009 2:06 AM why are some translators willing to bid so low?

Because they are unemployed?

Originally written by Jacek K. on November 9, 2009 1:07 AM Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 9, 2009 1:43 AM the bottom line at TC is $0.05 and any job below that may be removed without notice May. But will it? Originally written by John Fossey on November 9, 2009 2:06 AM why are some translators willing to bid so low?   Because they are unemployed?

Amen to that -  this pretty much sums up the entire thread  

Originally written by Jacek K. on November 9, 2009 1:07 AM Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 9, 2009 1:43 AM the bottom line at TC is $0.05 and any job below that may be removed without notice May. But will it?

As moderator, you have the answer to that.

The important thing is for people to know that.  The tolerated amounts are above the amounts you quoted earlier.

I will also contend that freelancers are by definition self-employed, not unemployed.  The reason that some people fall for these low rates is because they are new to the business and misinformed.  They get into the clutches of these entities, believe that they are being "trained", work day and night into exhaustion for hand to mouth survival rates.  They become dependant on this system and perhaps one single agency which they are "lucky" enough to have as sole supplier of endless work.

Have you never run into the type of person on this forum whose "dream" of becoming a translator became true one day when an agency hired them "even though they had no training or experience"?  The person wakes up one day to the fact that the rates they were quoted are not the true rates.  The person also discovers with astonishment that translations are expected to go out devoid of major errors.  He or she is even more astonished that it is standard for a professional translator to proofread his work, and that there is such a thing as procedure and method.  Our hapless person will then say that it is impossible to proofread when you are doing 5000 words per day - and is further astonished to discover that such amounts are not the norm, and that he or she is supposed to be stating how much is best handled.

No, when we are standing up against such rates and working conditions, we are not taking the food out of the mouth of some unfortunate person who is desperate and glad for such conditions.  We are protecting people against wanton exploitation.  And a great many don't know any better.  Translation is a profession.  It requires training of some kind, and knowing what you are doing.  When you do have some of that knowledge then it is easier to speak with authority and make certain things are fair to all concerned - including your client.

Maxi

Originally written by John Fossey on November 9, 2009 2:06 AM Perhaps we should rather focus on helping low rate translators see how they can raise their rates – ongoing education to increase value and demand for their services, marketing techniques to attract higher priced inquiries, helping them to see that with the global market for translation its no longer necessary to be constrained by the low rates of their local market.

---

* This thread has had an average number of viewings/post of 27 over the last year.

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 9, 2009 7:50 AM As moderator, you have the answer to that. The important thing is for people to know that.  The tolerated amounts are above the amounts you quoted earlier. I will also contend that freelancers are by definition self-employed, not unemployed.  The reason that some people fall for these low rates is because they are new to the business and misinformed.  They get into the clutches of these entities, believe that they are being "trained", work day and night into exhaustion for hand to mouth survival rates.  They become dependant on this system and perhaps one single agency which they are "lucky" enough to have as sole supplier of endless work. Have you never run into the type of person on this forum whose "dream" of becoming a translator became true one day when an agency hired them "even though they had no training or experience"?  The person wakes up one day to the fact that the rates they were quoted are not the true rates.  The person also discovers with astonishment that translations are expected to go out devoid of major errors.  He or she is even more astonished that it is standard for a professional translator to proofread his work, and that there is such a thing as procedure and method.  Our hapless person will then say that it is impossible to proofread when you are doing 5000 words per day - and is further astonished to discover that such amounts are not the norm, and that he or she is supposed to be stating how much is best handled. No, when we are standing up against such rates and working conditions, we are not taking the food out of the mouth of some unfortunate person who is desperate and glad for such conditions.  We are protecting people against wanton exploitation.  And a great many don't know any better.  Translation is a profession.  It requires training of some kind, and knowing what you are doing.  When you do have some of that knowledge then it is easier to speak with authority and make certain things are fair to all concerned - including your client. Maxi

I am sure I'll be glad to know that the reason I am going hungry is that my mother is being protected against wanton exploitation.

You see, I live in the Third world, and my mother stopped working for $ 00.03 per word when it was pointed out to her that she was being exploited.  Although desperate, she informed me that several, very concerned, people in the First world wanted to protect her against wanton exploitation.

So ... now we haven't eaten anything worth mentioning for days and my baby sister is crying...and now I will have to work instead of going to school. There's no school money and the local quarry needs workers. My father? you ask, he left and hasn't come back, which is a good thi...

Thank you. I really appreciate your concern and protection.

PS: I forgot to tell you that I am 9 years old.

I would be interested in responses from translators from India on this last.

My post, however, if read in full, was not about this.  Paragraphs are written to be read.  Otherwise we would stick to one-liners.

Maxi

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 9, 2009 10:44 AM I would be interested in responses from translators from India on this last. My post, however, if read in full, was not about this.  Paragraphs are written to be read.  Otherwise we would stick to one-liners. Maxi

To save space and to avoid long quotes, we usually edit quotes, but in the future I will gladly quote all your posts in toto.

To avoid posting a oneliner, I should perhaps point out that translators from India, and I did not mention India, aren't the only ones who, when desperate, take on work for $ 00.03 per word, but I am sure you know that already, Maxi.

Nanna

Ps: I have now edited Post #188991 to include your post, entire.

Originally written by Matthias Hammelehle on November 8, 2009 7:48 PM Agencies who work with translators accepting such low rates sound rather suicidal to me. A translation for USD 0.03 per word cannot be a quality translation.

Why not? I think that is rather generalizing and not completely fair to translators working for low rates. Some of them are very good at what they do. A translation from let's say the regional language of Punjab or even English into Dutch can be very good when done by a Dutchman who has decided in the eighties to settle there in order to 'discover his inner self' ot whatever reason people had in that era to settle in Punjab. If such a person decides to go into translation and turns out to be very good at it, what sort of rate would you expect this person to adopt? I suspect USD 0.03 per word would already be fairly high-end in that part of the world.

Originally written by Nanna Mercer on November 9, 2009 10:11 AM I live in the Third world, and my mother stopped working for $peanuts* when it was pointed out to her that she was being exploited.

Hi Nanna,

Your parable is based on the premise that $peanuts is the bottom level to which the employer is prepared to go.

What's to stop them dictating the market rate at will if the needy are obliged to acquiesce? Anything is better than nothing, right?

As for standardised minimum limits, there are so many variables that I cannot see them being practical, workable and useful at the same time, unless you're going to apply a raft of coefficients per language pair, type of job, quality level required, geographical region, etc.

Which is why I still hold by my original idea of a space where those concerned may simply voice a question, a detail or an opinion related to the job at hand and everyone is free to charge or bid as they see fit, with the advantage of at least being better informed.

* My edit.

How many Duchmen live in Punjab and are translators: 2, 3. ..         

Originally written by Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov on November 9, 2009 12:05 PM How many Duchmen live in Punjab and are translators: 2, 3. ..

Enough to grab all "translation from let's say the regional language of Punjab or even English into Dutch" that gets posted here? (Once they co-opt their wives that is.)

Originally written by Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov on November 9, 2009 12:05 PM How many Duchmen live in Punjab and are translators: . ..

Forget the second part of the question, as the first part seems enough to offer translation services worldwide overnight...

Originally written by Kevin Solan on November 8, 2009 11:46 AM Which is why I still hold by my original idea of a space where those concerned may simply voice a question, a detail or an opinion related to the job at hand and everyone is free to charge or bid as they see fit, with the advantage of at least being better informed.

You have still failed to justify why anybody has the right to criticise (because that is what your "opinion" suggests) another person for accepting a job at a rate which they, personally, find too low. People who do not wish to work for such rates are not obliged to participate in the bidding system. In fact, most of those here who object to the low rates rarely, if ever, dirty their hands in such bidding fiascos. And the idea that allowing comments will somehow prove to be the silver bullet that dissuades agencies from continuing to offer such low rates is, quite simply, pie in the sky.

Jonathan

Are you sure they are not MT users? 

Originally written by Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov on November 8, 2009 12:21 PM Are you sure they are not MT users?

Do you seriously believe that people working for very low rates have the sort of money required to purchase an MT system?

Jonathan

Originally written by Jonathan Ellis on November 9, 2009 12:24 PM Originally written by Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov on November 8, 2009 12:21 PM Are you sure they are not MT users?  Do you seriously believe that people working for very low rates have the sort of money required to purchase an MT system?

Well, all you need is

1. A basic PC
2. An Internet connection (preferably broadband, though).
3. GoogleTranslate (or equivalent).

The snag, however, is that any 'clients' satisfied with rough machine translation can use online MT services themselves, so why on earth would they even want to pay $0.0x per word??

My point about the Dutchmen living in Punjab was an example as a response to the in my eyes not really fair statement regarding the quality one may expect for a fee of USD 0.03 per word. It was in no way intended to go any further as an example but as Jacek points out, the 2 or 3 Dutchman living in Punjab will probably pick up all translation work posted on the Translators Café job boards in that language pair, I'd say that they will have oligopoly on their niche market. And I have no doubt that you will find almost every nationality in such regions, for a wide variety of purposes, so there is probably a lot of oligopolies wandering around in strange parts of the world...

With the ongoing transformation of the various regional market places into one global market place, thanks to internet, it was only a matter of time before rates would drop to lower levels. Rather than arguing why this shouldn't be the case, I opt to deal with it in my own way. Whenever I get an unreasonable request from faraway locations I politely inform that if they want to use my services, they should be aware that I live I France and that I expect to get a rate that reflects the cost of living in France. If any company from for example Punjab insists on offering me the for their understanding very high rate of USD 0.03, I respectully suggest they go and find the 2 or 3 Dutchman in Punjab that offer that language pair. I cannot buy my daily baguette from the rates they are offering and what is the point of working when I cannot buy food for my household from the proceeds of my work?

Usually, such agencies never come back to me and if they do, the offer has improved significantly, although I have yet to encounter a raise to my desired western rates from agencies from the far east. In other words, I still don't work for them.

Theo, Dutchman in France

There is a puzzling fault in logic.  I pointed out that theoretically on TC, the lowest possible rate that an agency can acceptably demand to pay, is .05 and no lower.   This is not absolute: check my quoted wording - but it is there.   If the hypothetical mother of the starving 9 year old can now be pressured to offer .05, but nobody can be pressured to offer .02, she will receive twice as much as she did before even if she quotes the lowest rate.  How does it hurt this mother, if such a policy were to be implemented more stringently, and be done so in all organizations such as here?

For those who find it acceptable to take part in this kind of bidding process, at least they are not been pressured to compete against each other to ridiculously low rates, that get lower and lower.  I fail to see how this could hurt any translator in any circumstance.

I am at a loss as to why any translator would be against such a thing.  Certainly the type of agency that exploits would be against it - but translators?

Maxi

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 9, 2009 1:48 PM I am at a loss as to why any translator would be against such a thing.

All the 27 of us following this thread are for it, Maxi.

Apparently, it is the market, i.e. among others, the remaining 101,056 registered TC users, who are against it...

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 9, 2009 1:43 AM Since the bottom line at TC is $0.05 and any job below that may be removed without notice [...] Maxi

["bottom line at TC is $0.05 and any job below that may be removed"] Wow, that's great news! I wasn't aware of this policy but it's a great move! But then... how come over the past month I've read at least 4 job offers in my language pair alone (Fr/Eng, no 3rd world language and high-cost countries) offering specifically 1 and 2-to-3 cents or, via indirect calculation, 1 or 2 cents (one mentioned by Kevin plus for 1 hour-episodes of TV shows at 20 €/hour of recording)?? I guess the answer is in the verb "may"! Could this policy/principle be actually enforced, rather that remain a "may"? That could help really differentiate TC from other low-cost platforms.

I agree with a few others that the issue is to educate/help/advise/tutor competent translator colleagues who are the only cause of ultra-low rates and other deteriorating working conditions (incompetent translators working for peanuts are not the problem anyway, nor are fly-by-night kitchen-top operators since both belong to a different market segment that the 27 of us reading this thread are not targeting anyway). Blaming the agencies and other intermediaries, who by nature (ref. the story about the frog and the scorpion http://www.gardenplum.com/girls/gratree/frogandscorpion.html!) are concerned only with their bottom line and/or shareholders value is a waste of our time and akin to fighting windmills. 

This recent thread I just found is a good example of what we can do to help others and that we can work from the positive side of things, explaining that the downtrend is not a fatality, or as Maxi said should not be taken for granted as in "that's the way it is":  http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/MegaBBS/thread-view.asp?threadid=15101&posts=5.

None of this actually concerns me directly since I never look for work via internet, practice relatively high rates and have an ongoing large flow of work from a stable direct client portfolio, despite the internet, globalization or the crisis. Yet, why not try to defend our profession and make it a better world for the next generation of good translators (unlike Derek, I am not pessimistic about their future).

dominique

PS: I am in favour of a "comments" box below the offers in the Job Board (open to all, not just bidders, that would be worthless - see Jonathan's earlier post on that subject). Those not interested can just ignore it - I'll use that instead of sending private e-mails to the posters whenever my screen gets tired of me screaming at it! (BTW I only do that with cut-rate posters located in the western EU). But we also need to have "think positive" threads to counterbalance the profession-damaging trends we don't like.

Originally written by Jonathan Ellis on November 9, 2009 12:21 PM the idea that allowing comments will somehow prove to be the silver bullet that dissuades agencies from continuing to offer such low rates is, quite simply, pie in the sky.

You may well be right, Jonathan, but the mere fact that we are discussing such job offers here, in all their forms, in full view of the entire WWW, years on, suggests to me that simply testing a working model of a restricted Q&A/comment box might already lay some of our claims, questions or doubts to rest. Between us, we have probably already invested hundreds of hours of our own time in trying to define what a few php scripts would do much more easily and in a controllable context.

In fact, as a buyer, I have realised in reading through this thread that people are ready to work for a lot less than I had previously imagined. A Google search, 1st page, 3 clicks, and any other prospective buyer could come to the same conclusion.

From a business perspective, I'm not really worried what the rates are. As Jacek pointed out, the market decides. So I prefer to be in a position where I have the market working for me: low rates, I buy low; high rates, I sell high. And as long as I am less naive and uninformed than others in my supply chain, I can exploit that naiveté to boost my own profit margins.

But even as a BUYER, a Q&A/comment box would be useful. I have already had to respond to 20+ bidders all asking the same question which wasn't clear to them on the job post. Answering it ONCE would be so much easier. Let me reiterate - "rates" are probably the simplest means of conceptualising a comment thread, but there are many other aspects that should be taken into account, clarity not least among them.

There are endless arguments as to how & why it would be useful. I have still to hear any specific case put as to why it should NOT be introduced.

Originally written by Derek Thornton on November 8, 2009 11:35 PM Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 8, 2009 9:32 PM Jacek fills this site with his comments and so do you. How often are they directed at making things better? Huh?    You might have missed my earlier point. I believe passionately in not fixing things that ain't broke! I cannot see how accumulating unsolicited comments directed at the job offerer is going to increase translation word rates or reduce scheduling pressures. As for site filling: Jacek is a notorious site filler, my efforts pale in comparison with his but thank you for the compliment anyway, I do my best. Derek

It will not increase translation word rates. The point is it would be NICE if for once translators could tell agencies "publicly" what is considered acceptable or unacceptable. The websites and organizations that claim to support translators should allow a transparent comments' system re jobs. Otherwise, it's always about the agency, the association, the institution and never about the individual translators being able to express specific complaints re specific job offers. Why should bad offers (yes, to be defined more precisely) get booed? By the way, in order to "get around" this notion prevalent in the US, that "rates setting" is anti-competitive (it's a huge problem by the way), remarks by individuals cannot be construed that way. It would just be a number of individual translators saying "this is unacceptable", too low or whatever. Ins't that a good idea? And why shouldn't the "market" include a place where the people who work in it can direct public comments to those who commission it?

Also, I see no reason for people to keep saying "Oh, I never use the job board".etc. The Job Board for your information people is a VITAL INSTRUMENT in the existence of this site. Wake up! Just because there are ladeedah translators (myself included, ha ha ha) doesn't mean that one need puff up self-importantly re the Job Board.

Were it not for the Job Board, there would most likely not be any advertising. Did that even occur to any of you? Now, it is a vital component of site, but I just happen to think it could use some improvement. OK, maybe non-bidders should be able to make comments. Whatever. The point is there should be a place AFTER THE JOB POST where comments can be left by those who wish to leave them...that is all. That was my original idea in response to Kevin's first post.

Quote format fixed by forum administrator

The translation industry is certainly not contributing to currency inflation as rates have generally gone down in recent years. Why should translators have to accept lower payments if is not justified by the necessity to stop monetary inflation? Inflation cannot be cured on the back of one selected industry.

Agencies who always select the service of the cheapest provider will vanish from the market naturally as they will ruin their own reputation very soon and have a lot of unhappy non-paying clients. Although they will of course try to shift the blame to the translators, they know well that they are damaging their own companies with going cheaper and cheaper. What is it worth for? Has anybody ever consciously voted for the cheapest administration? Would you go to the cheapest doctor? Marry the cheapest wife or husband?

There are laws against paying your customers to pick you, but in fact there no laws against low-paid freelance jobs and so there are in fact job sites where translators will bid less than USD 10 per hour. Just look at oDesk (USA) and similar services.

However unlike milk, a translation service will not remain the same quality if being paid less than it needs to finance its production.

As an example, with a rate of USD 0.10 per word you would need to translate 1500 words a day during an 8h office day in order to earn the legal minimum wage of Luxemburg (currently fixed at 9.73 EUR per hour).

1,500 words a day is a good average for a self-respecting, accurate and professional translator. Now imagine to go down to 30% of your rate. You would need to translate over 5,000 words each day of your life to earn the same minimum wage - this seems impossible. You may manage to translate 5,000 words on a good day but definitely not every day.

Still it is not necessary to restrikt low payment offers. Would we then have a spy apply for each job posted on TC in order to find out if the buyer dares to accept a low bid by a translator?

What is a job site worth if we create an atmosphere of Stasi style mistrust, paranoia and dissatisfaction?

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 9, 2009 5:13 PM  The point is it would be NICE if for once translators could tell agencies "publicly" what is considered acceptable or unacceptable. The websites and organizations that claim to support translators should allow a transparent comments' system re jobs. Otherwise, it's always about the agency, the association, the institution and never about the individual translators being able to express specific complaints re specific job offers. Why should bad offers (yes, to be defined more precisely) get booed? By the way, in order to "get around" this notion prevalent in the US, that "rates setting" is anti-competitive (it's a huge problem by the way), remarks by individuals cannot be construed that way. It would just be a number of individual translators saying "this is unacceptable", too low or whatever. Ins't that a good idea? And why shouldn't the "market" include a place where the people who work in it can direct public comments to those who commission it?

Dear Jane and All,

Since my name as a filler is there, I have to clarify that my comments on the proposed idea in no way can be construed as an opposition to it. I am all for whatever virtual bells and whistles it takes to make everyone in cyberspace happy!

I was just thinking out loud, while sitting in my real world, that it would be simply unthinkable for anyone to interfere in my business relations with my contractors in my presence. My contractors have certain rates which I promptly pay and if they come to the conclusion, either by themselves or with the help of external advisors, that those rates are inadequate, they are free to raise them, and then we will take it from there. My freelancers are businesspeople like myself, they perfectly know the local (!) market where I operate, they know their capacity and the volume of my requests, and thus they are perfectly capable of shaping their business relationship with me the details of which, obviously, constitute trade secret.

So, while watching the reverse auction virtual circus for years, I am just baffled by what carrying on business in the virtual space entails. I am used to a certain government supervision of my sworn translations, for example, but the degree of public scrutiny of private translation contracts that is being proposed here just makes my jaw drop. Gee, this is a world I could never be part of and I thank God every day for having spared me this experience.

I repeat: I do not carry on business on the Web, so in that sense I don't care what is going on there. Comments or no comments, all is perfectly fine with me. I just hope that Anatoly, with the help of moderators who have relevant expertise, will sort this out for everyone's benefit.

Peace,

Jacek

Kevin,

I've looked at your site and in the least you give the appearance of professionalism and thoroughness.  Have you looked around at the auction system here, the "job offers", and have you read the nature of problems encountered in the Hall of Fame and Shame?  If you don't have access, request access and look around for a week or two.  Put a pillow on your desktop to catch your jaw as it drops.  Have you ended up receiving offers to bid in private e-mails from this particular marketplace?  And I do say 'particular' because there seem to be two parallel worlds.

In the marketplace that I inhabit, translators are seen as fully trained professionals who carry that kind of responsibility.  Agencies will present pertinent information: type of work, language pairs, length, special requirements, specifics about the job (student needs to present herself well, has CV, specialization in visual arts at the doctorate level).  The agencies I deal with will consult with me, and ask me what the best timing is, and whether I think I can handle that particular job.  Since I have the expertise, it is to everyone's advantage that I share it.

In contrast, offers to bid as well as e-mails from that corner are much different.  Word count is not even given some of the time.  The nature of the text (science, law, advertisement) is not given - yet they expect a translator to choose to bid for a thing he/she knows nothing about.  What priorities and knowledge does this reflect?  Unrealistic output of 5000 words/day is put forth, which can lead to error.  They use unknown translators for a first job, and they put together groups of unknown translators to work as "teams" with no coordinating body.  Everything is "urgent" which makes it sound as though they don't know how to plan or pace themselves.  Are these people in a constant state of emergency?

It is not just the low rates.  Any of the above things, and especially in combination, smacks of unprofessionalism.

Now, one thing that is precious to me is my reputation.  Without it, my goose is cooked.  If I take on a rush translation of unknown material at an unrealistic deadline, working with a disorganized possibly incompetent agency, there is a risk of error at various planes.  I will not risk doing poor work and providing shoddy service.  That can affect my reputation long after that particular job is done.

Maxi

Today's job offer from France (i.e. a very HIGH-cost country )

["I need a professional translator, for a job Under AUTOCAD 2010 (You must know to use this cat tool). Price offered is 12 euros/page"] - i.e. at 300 wd/page = 0,04 eur

Don't miss out on this outstanding bargain! Particularly if you've invested top dollars in AutoCad... Lucky lady, there's no 'comments' box yet under her post...!

 Apart from rates related issues, here are a few examples of previous job offers posted by the same person (out of her 39 posts), with wording pitifully emblematic of the level of "professionalism" of such outsourcers (and bidders replying):

["Hi All - I need a urgent (easy) job into german to frencn, due tonight 9 PM FRENCH TIME
Price offered: 100 USD"]

["Translation of aero-électric documents (quite simple terms) - Hi, All
I have some documents to be translated for Monday - Please contact only if you are serious and reliable"]

["Big project for monday, video game (sport programs) - Hi, need of eng to french translators for video games scripts - Due to volume (about 120000 words), price offered is 0,035 usd/sw"] = 0.0233 EUR (note the "120,000 wds for Monday", this was posted on Wednesday)

[" - Hi, All - I have about 33 401 words to be translated for a video game application, due on October,30th.
The work could be divided but I would prefer only One Translator.
Please, only SERIOUS and RELIABLE applicants, native of French language. Deadline is a must and quality a priority. Price offered: 500 USD"] i.e. 0,01 USD = 0.00666 EUR

 etc. etc... I just love the very professional and ubiquitous "Hi all"...

df  

Originally written by Matthias Hammelehle on November 9, 2009 4:36 PM Agencies who always select the service of the cheapest provider will vanish from the market naturally as they will ruin their own reputation very soon and have a lot of unhappy non-paying clients. Although they will of course try to shift the blame to the translators, they know well that they are damaging their own companies with going cheaper and cheaper. What is it worth for? Has anybody ever consciously voted for the cheapest administration? Would you go to the cheapest doctor? Marry the cheapest wife or husband?

Just as there are different market segments for translators, so are there different market segments for agencies and for translation clients. Some clients can pay for the most expensive translations, others need something cheaper, even a lot cheaper. The suggestion that all clients should buy only from the top agencies who should pass their work only onto the top translators is unrealistic. The best, and most expensive seats at the opera are right in the front. Do you ever wonder why the theater even bothers to provide cheaper seats? Isn't it clear that everybody in the theater should be sitting in the front row?

Originally written by Matthias Hammelehle on November 9, 2009 4:36 PM As an example, with a rate of USD 0.10 per word you would need to translate 1500 words a day during an 8h office day in order to earn the legal minimum wage of Luxemburg (currently fixed at 9.73 EUR per hour).

But I don't live in Luxemburg. What has the legal minimum wage in Luxemburg to do with me? 1500 words in an 8 hour day is a miserable output. That is 1500/8 or 187.5 words/hour which, at 10 US cents/word earns you US$18.75/hour or 13.40 EUR/hour - considerably more than your 9.73 EUR/hour in Luxemburg. And I don't have to work in Luxemburg, I could do what I do from a village just outside Minsk and there for 13.40 EUR/hour I could live like a prince.

Originally written by Matthias Hammelehle on November 9, 2009 4:36 PM 1,500 words a day is a good average for a self-respecting, accurate and professional translator.

The attributes "self-respecting", "accurate" and "professional" are completely subjective, none of them can be measured. You are self-respecting if you say you are, you are accurate unless somebody demonstrates that you have made visible errors above some arbitrary limit (unless you claim to be always 100% accurate, I claim not to make more than 1 error of any kind in every 1000 words). The attribute "professional" means nothing more to me than that you are doing it for money.

Originally written by Matthias Hammelehle on November 9, 2009 4:36 PM Now imagine to go down to 30% of your rate. You would need to translate over 5,000 words each day of your life to earn the same minimum wage - this seems impossible. You may manage to translate 5,000 words on a good day but definitely not every day.

Not so! 30% off US$0.10 is US$0.07/word. 9.73 EUR = US$13.62. At US$0.07/word, you can earn $13.62 with 13.62/0.07 = 195 words. A "self-respecting, accurate, professional" commercial translator who cannot manage more than 195 words an hour every full working day should find some other way to earn a living!

Your way of calculating translator income differs from mine, Matthias. I don't particularly care what the rate per word is, all words are not made equal. Most words can be translated very quickly using modern methods. If the subject matter is in one of the fields that I claim to be familiar with then I have most, if not all, of the terminology readily available. If there are terms that I have to spend time searching for then that is not the agency's fault, that is my fault, and I don't charge for that time. 

Derek

Originally written by Derek Thornton on November 9, 2009 3:02 PM Originally written by Matthias Hammelehle on November 9, 2009 4:36 PM Now imagine to go down to 30% of your rate. You would need to translate over 5,000 words each day of your life to earn the same minimum wage - this seems impossible. You may manage to translate 5,000 words on a good day but definitely not every day.  Nonsense! 30% off US$0.10 is US$0.07/word. 9.73 EUR = US$13.62. At US$0.07/word, you can earn $13.62 with 13.62/0.07 = 195 words. A "self-respecting, accurate, professional" commercial translator who cannot manage more than 195 words an hour every full working day should find some other way to earn a living! Derek

Before you start shouting "Nonsense!" at me you should have read carefully that I wrote "Now imagine to go down to 30% of your rate"  and not "30% off", as you interpreted it in error.

30% of USD 0.10 is USD 0.03 (the rate example at the top of this thread) and not 30% off from 0.10 (=0.07). This makes it 454 words per hour in order earn the same a a waiter in Luxemburg.

That is 3600 words a day for a minimum wage. If you call this a fair price, you must be in fact rather be from Minsk than from Pforzheim.

Originally written by dominique f. on November 9, 2009 8:23 PM Today's job offer from France (i.e. a very HIGH-cost country ) [...]  etc. etc... I just love the very professional and ubiquitous "Hi all"...

I am not going to suggest that the rates mentioned are perfectly fine. Nor am I going to suggest that the person advertising these jobs is unaware that the advertised jobs at the offered rates are not optimal or that s/he isn't trying to make money on the back of others, for that seems perfectly clear, but I would like to suggest that this person, however anonymous, has not signed up for being publicly ridiculed. 

There's something about this thread that really bothers me. So X is using the job board to offer jobs at rates below what seems reasonable to most service providers, but is X really doing something nasty, underhanded or different from every other job poster? No! Does that make it right? I don't know. But fact is that it's out there and people can take it or leave it. Sooner or later the kitchen table outfit will lose clients because their business practices are mostly based on inexperienced or fly-by-night service providers.

The job poster has been invited to use the job board and is using it. If you don't like the advertised job or the offered rate, then leave it alone. Go back to doing business the way you used to do it. The Internet is driving commerce in many ways, some of them not to our liking, but railing against it won't stop the Internet . 

When I shop around, I am polite and pleasant and if the item I am shopping for isn't available or in my price range, then I thank the sales person for helping me clarify my options. I may say that the identical item is on sale at Y place and also mention the price and suggest that the sales person go a little below that price, but if he won't or can't, well I don't shout at him or ridicule him for his bad business practices. What would I gain by shouting and ridiculing another business person?

Nothing!

Nanna

Originally written by Matthias Hammelehle on November 9, 2009 9:41 PM Before you start shouting "Nonsense!" at me you should have read carefully that I wrote "Now imagine to go down to 30% of your rate"  and not "30% off", as you interpreted it in error.

Yes, I am sorry about the "Nonsense!" Matthias, it slipped out when I was hungry. I did go back to alter it after dinner but you must already have started on your response before that. As for the errors, you are right there, too, although in my defense I could mention that "Now imagine to go down to 30% of your rate"  is not idiomatic English but I should have made allowances for you. As it was, I understood "Now imagine going down by 30% of your rate" . Sorry about that!

Originally written by Matthias Hammelehle on November 9, 2009 9:41 PM 30% of USD 0.10 is USD 0.03 (the rate example at the top of this thread) and not 30% off from 0.10 (=0.07). This makes it 454 words per hour in order earn the same as a waiter in Luxemburg.

Sorry but to me all that is still completely irrelevant. The 3 cent/word offer was not made to a waiter in Luxemburg but to a translator in Tunisia. For all you and I know, it might be customary in Tunisia to haggle over rates and the person making the offer was doing nothing more than bidding low to start off the haggle. The translator replies with an offer to do the job for 10 cents/word and they settle for something around 7 cents/word. What is wrong with that?

Originally written by Matthias Hammelehle on November 9, 2009 9:41 PM That is 3600 words a day for a minimum wage. If you call this a fair price, you must be in fact rather be from Minsk than from Pforzheim.

Now you are comparing minimum wage for a waiter in Luxemburg with fair price for a translator in Pforzheim/Minsk.

But this translator in Pforzheim/Minsk is not in the business of selling words. This whole US$/word talk merely clouds the issue. The words are not mine to sell. All I do is chew somebody else's words over and spit them out again in another language. That has not cost me anything except my time. How much I sell my time for is my business and nobody else's. How many words I can get through in unit time depends on how fast I feel like working.

A great deal depends on the way I choose to work. If I sit down, open the source text at line 1, page 1 and slowly flog my way through to the end, counting the words as I go and dreaming of another 3 cents in the pot for each piddling word then, yes, you are right, it would seem like a miserable way to earn the rent money but I don't work that way, although it is clear that many of our colleagues do.

And I don't live in Luxemburg but in sleepy rural Pforzheim and I make enough to take another walk around to Edeka to see if they have any more of that shoulder of New Zealand lamb in again. The money would go further in a village near Minsk and if the going should ever get tough, I would simply pack up and move east. Or charge a bit more per job? I sure won't be going anywhere near Luxemburg or Tunisia, although I have worked in both Algeria and Libya so Tunisia might be worth considering.

Derek

Originally written by dominique f. on November 9, 2009 2:23 PM [quoted from the Job Board] job offer from France (i.e. a very HIGH-cost country ) [job board] ["I need a professional translator, for a job Under AUTOCAD 2010 (You must know to use this cat tool). Price offered is 12 euros/page"] - i.e. at 300 wd/page = 0,04 eur [end job board post]

Yep, that is real HOOT. I saw that ad when it was posted. When did AUTOCAD become a CAT tool????? The poster is obviously clueless and is just probably parroting what the customer said, who must also be CLUELESS....which is surprising, since I would expect that the customer is an Architect or Designer and knows that AUTOCAD is not a CAT tool....miao....

Also, I love that "a job under AUTOCAD 2010"...as a translation of /sous/ used to designate the program something is in, in French.

Now, here is what I would write to such as poster:

I fail to see how a professional translator would be able to use an AUTOCAD program as a CAT tool. Perhaps a regular translator might do the trick. Could you possibly enlighten me? Thank-you.

Quote format fixed by forum administrator

Jane: would you please try and use the Quote feature properly, thanks!

Originally written by dominique f. on November 9, 2009 7:23 PM Today's job offer from France (i.e. a very HIGH-cost country: ["I need a professional translator, for a job Under AUTOCAD 2010 (You must know to use this cat tool). Price offered is 12 euros/page"] - i.e. at 300 wd/page = 0,04 eur

Where did you get the "300 wd/page" from, Dominique? I would expect pages produced with AUTOCAD to be drawings and not full text. There are probably only a few words on each page. If that is so then 12 euros/page seems to me to be a fair price.

I have translated pages in AUTOSKETCH at 5 minutes a page. At 12 euros/page that would be more than US$200/hour and beats even your exorbitant stated minimum rate of US$120/hour.

Derek

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 9, 2009 11:17 PM I fail to see how a professional translator would be able to use an AUTOCAD program as a CAT tool. Perhaps a regular translator might do the trick. Could you possibly enlighten me?

The error is CAT instead of CAD. Do you propose starting a correspondence with a job poster about a T for a D?

I can enlighten you about handling quotes in TC. You ensure that the word QUOTE is in square brackets before each quote and has /QUOTE in square brackets after it. That never fails to work.

Originally written by Jane Lamb-Ruiz on November 10, 2009 12:17 AM I would expect that the customer... knows that AUTOCAD is not a CAT tool

Originally written by Derek Thornton on November 10, 2009 12:22 AM Where did you get the "300 wd/page" from, Dominique? I would expect pages produced with AUTOCAD to be drawings and not full text.

Originally written by dominique f. on November 9, 2009 8:23 PM 33 401 words... Price offered: 500 USD"] i.e. 0,01 USD = 0.00666 EUR

Actually, I make that $0.015 (€0.01), Dominique, but I take your point.

But thank you all. Aren't these just prime examples of why a simple Q&A/comment box would be such a great idea?! It would give a poster the chance to clear up any misunderstanding for all concerned, encourage others to make their posts clearer or re-edit if needed, and it may even turn out that a job is really worthwhile and we're getting in a huff for nothing ...in which case the poster may really attract some quality bidders!

Originally written by Kevin Solan on November 9, 2009 11:54 PM But thank you all. Aren't these just prime examples of why a simple Q&A/comment box would be such a great idea?! It would give a poster the chance to clear up any misunderstanding for all concerned, encourage others to make their posts clearer or re-edit if needed, and it may even turn out that a job is really worthwhile and we're getting in a huff for nothing ...in which case the poster may really attract some quality bidders!

Ah, I am beginning to get the idea now, Kevin. But even then, the aspect that still worries me is that you might be trying to fix something that isn't broken. The Job section appears to me to be working well enough. If I understand you correctly, all this is to be done primarily for the benefit of the job posters, but we have seen no evidence that frequent job posters have expressed a need to have misunderstandings cleared up via a two-way communication with the non-bidders.

TC has over 100,000 members. Most have shown very little interest in contributing to the forums, many of those who do contribute to the forums turn out to be particularly verbose. If that proportion is repeated in the job comments pages then we could probably manage to assemble 20, 50, 100 comments originated by a handfull of non-bidders for each job. Just look at this thread as an example. Are you convinced that frequent job posters would be interested in plowing through that lot just to get a few additional bidders for yet another piddling translation job? I know for sure that I wouldn't be, particularly if they were of the Jane and Dominique type, dead keen to tell the job poster what a mess he/she has made of the ad but with no intention of bidding. 

I still feel that most of the difficulties could be eliminated by having a few more "must" fields for job posters to fill in. At the moment there is nothing to force job posters to even indicate the subject of the translation hence job ads appear of the type "10,000 words to translate by Wednesday. Send CV and best rate." Those people probably believe that once you can translate, you can translate anything. I have a feeling that there are sufficent translators who believe that they can translate anything to satisfy the demand.

A set of tick boxes for the acceptable price range might also help to classify the ads according to price, delivery date, quality required, experience necessary, etc. I believe that TC should improve and standardize the entry form for job posters first and then maybe later provide a comments facility for telling the job posters what they are doing wrong if that does not help. If job posters are guided in what they must include in their ad and constrained in what they can include then there might be no need for any free-text comments.

Derek   

Much better idea  

Originally written by Derek Thornton on November 9, 2009 8:05 PM I still feel that most of the difficulties could be eliminated by having a few more "must" fields for job posters to fill in.

Great idea.  How about a "must" field for the asking/offered price.  Then the system could compare the posters price with the average for the pair and give a warning something like "Are you sure?  The average rate for this language pair is USD $0.12, while your offer is USD $0.05.  Click 'Confirm' if you want to offer a job at 42% of the average price". 

John,

That won't deter anyone from clicking 'Confirm' if that's what their business calculations are telling them.

No Makro outlet will accept to sell at Harrod's prices no matter how hard you try to shame them into doing so.

You can try to shame the crowds flocking into Makro stores, though, by directing them to the nearest Harrod's equivalent. How about if we start running a black list of translators bidding for all those 'below 0.05' jobs and thus stealing them from established $.12+ professionals? It could be similar to this:

Where is the RULE that says quotes have to be perfect? Laurent? Derek?

If there is no rule, just give it a break.

Originally written by Jacek K. on November 10, 2009 8:32 AM John, That won't deter anyone from clicking 'Confirm' if that's what their business calculations are telling them. No Makro outlet will accept to sell at Harrod's prices no matter how hard you try to shame them into doing so. You can try to shame the crowds flocking into Makro stores, though, by directing them to the nearest Harrod's equivalent. How about if we start running a black list of translators bidding for all those 'below 0.05' jobs and thus stealing them from established $.12+ professionals? It could be similar to this:

Alright, how about, after the "Confirm" query, adding "Your name will be added to the blacklist and a symbol placed next to your post" ?

Yup, that would do the trick all right.

They would just keep posting to all the other portals that are not that organized and would stop posting here, without even noticing any drop in the number of bids they would be receiving from all over cyberspace!

In India they make a cheap, but perfectly fine, little car called Nano, which sells for about $2,000.00. The Nano is a little smaller than a Volkswagen and not quite as study. In DK, the Volkswagen sells for about DKK195,000. - which is approx. $39,000.-  yesirree...

Imagine if Mr. Someone from India demanded the right to buy a small car like the Nano for the price he would pay in India. Does anyone here think that the Danish sales person would understand Mr. Someone's request and accede to it? Dream on!

In 1999, I wanted to import my almost new and paid off Honda Civic from the U.S. and yes I could do so, but although I wouldn't have to pay VAT, I would have to pay an import tariff to the tune of approx. $8,500. - which is what I paid for the car in the first place. I had a great deal of communication going back and forth with the authorites on both sides of the pond, but to no avail - pay up or else.

No matter how much we want life to follow logic and common sense it's doesn't always, and no amount of screaming or hollering or even plain ordinary polite communication will alter that fact. 

Nanna