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Je ne suis pas toujours de mon avis.Paul Valéry
Página: 1 2 3 4
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Publicado:
jueves, 26 de noviembre de 2009 4:42
Mensaje #190241-en respuesta a #45956
+0-0
J. K.
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Lengua materna: Polaco
Se inscribió el: martes, 18 de febrero de 2003
Ubicación: Polonia

(removed) 
RE: %age matches and how much to charge

Thank God MS Word in which I work doesn't calculate any "matches" for me. As I said earlier, if I ever used any CAT tools for my convenience, my client would be the last person to know about it.

During a recent Studio training, I was startled to see that now in every translated segment you conspicuously see its "worth" in percentage points, i.e., whether they are going to pay you 89% or 79% of words because of repetitions, fuzzy matches, etc. It's mind boggling how low translators fell in accepting such a diktat.

On the other hand it's a good bargaining chip now that I am going to have two fillings done. I estimate one of them to be an 89% "match" of the other so I am going to pay my dentist accordingly. Oh, and my newspaper! I have to run it through a calculator to see whether it uses 79% or 89% of the words from the day before. It may even be a full match. "End of game." Isn't that what they call it?


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Publicado:
jueves, 26 de noviembre de 2009 5:02
Mensaje #190243-en respuesta a #190241
+0-0
Nanna Mercer
Lenguas maternas: Inglés, Danés
Se inscribió el: sábado, 12 de febrero de 2005
Ubicación: Dinamarca
 
RE: %age matches and how much to charge

Originally written by Jacek K. on November 26, 2009 10:42 AM

During a recent Studio training, I was startled to see that now in every translated segment you conspicuously see its "worth" in percentage points, i.e., whether they are going to pay you 89% or 79% of words because of repetitions, fuzzy matches, etc. It's mind boggling how low translators fell in accepting such a diktat.

Oh --- I have no problems with 100% matches that are so dang easy that they aren't worth even a small percentage point of a penny. None!

I tell the client, or to be completely honest, I once told one agency client, that since the words are 100% matches and too easy to count and thus pay for, I will simply omit those and leave them for the client to insert.

Nanna


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Publicado:
jueves, 22 de abril de 2010 13:14
Mensaje #197855-en respuesta a #197855
Este mensaje fue movido desde otro hilo.
+1-0
Harold Vadney
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Veteran
1002525
Lenguas maternas: Inglés, Alemán
Mensajes:161
1
Se inscribió el: miércoles, 02 de noviembre de 2005
Ubicación: Estados Unidos
 
No Charge for Reps and 100% Matches?!?!?

I have been getting this line or similar lines for a couple of months now:

"...Unfortunately, pressure to lower prices is big and ever growing. One measure to - on one hand - please the customer and respond to his claims of an economic translation (maintaining high quality standards), without - on the other hand - doing excessive harm to our and the translators´ interests is not to charge internal repetitions and 100% matches. Both are hardly any additional work for the translator (this changes, obviously, for the proofreader), as it is "simply" click on "translate to fuzzy"."

I don't agree in practice or in principle with such thoughts and I sent the outsourcer a copy of the Trados Marketing Tipsheet on Price Leveraging and the 30-60-100 rule when I replied:

You refer to our negotiations for a "Siemens project." As I recall it was supposed to be a big project with plenty of volume and support. That project never materialized back in February. Negotiations and agreements made for a specific project apply to that project only and expire with project completion, but if the project never materializes any such specific negotiations become moot--they, too, expire. Besides, no work came thru from [agency name redacted] since that time. This is the first job sent.
 
No one, however, should require the use of expensive software and profit from the benefits for leveraging advantages with a customer without remunerating the translator for the translator's investment. That's almost tantamount to commissioning a printed color advert and then not paying for the coloration on the claim that the publisher profited by advertising for you. That is unethical.
 
Moreover, every translator knows that simply taking a log analysis log and accepting it to be Scriptural truth and accurate at the very least, naïve. Many times experience has shown that even so-called 100% matches and repetitions require checking and editing. If this is not done and there someone notes an inconsistency or a so-called mistake, who gets blamed? The translator.
 
Even you you cover yourself by imposing upon the translator the actual onus of quality assurance checks (please see the controversial wording of p. 2 of the EuroText job order form), you are still asking for services for which you task the translator but may not be willing to pay.
 
NO EUROPEAN professional translators organization condones a simple no-charge for 100% or repetitions; in fact, several professional organizations have published statements on specifically that question and have condemned it as bastardizing the translating profession. A simple web search will clearly support that statement.
 
While there may be pressure to lower prices there is also the marketing advantage of forming relationships and entering into honest dialogue with customers. If they want a cheap translation, there's Asia and they can have a translation that sounds like it's been translated by a Chinese or an Indian. If the customer thinks that such translations sell products or services, well, it's best not to do business with them because they'll soon be bankrupt. It's common sense. Furthermore, translators cannot be made to bear the burden of price-cutting or cut-throat competition; companies may settle to make €1 or €0.10 per 100 words; the fact remains that the translator has little or nothing to do with that and his/her expenses are not on a sliding scale based on what outsourcers negotiate or how they market their product to customers.
 
Moreover, it's not the Chinese and the Indians who are buying American and European products...they are selling the products to the US and to Europe! And the markets that are selling technology to the Chinese and to the Indians are very high-tech industries (medical imaging, aircraft, high-precision instruments, etc.) Either way, idiomatic, consistent translations are produced only by professional technical translators, and English continues to be the language of commerce.
 
Furthermore, if you have a TM that is created with Translator's Workbench and require a new project to be done in TagEditor using that Trados TW dbase, the analysis will show 100% matches but TagEditor will require editing to insert the tags. What is the solution to that?
 
While I do appreciate your competition problems, it would be unfair to make arrangements with one customer that cannot be made and are not made for other customers in the EU territory. In future, unless specifically negotiated for larger volume or ongoing project work, however, my rate for 100% and for repetition is and continues to be a minimum of € 0.02 per word or 25% of the word rate, whichever is higher.

This practice of requiring a specific software that is one of the most costly and problematic on the market, and then turning around and refusing to pay for what even Trados recommends in it's 30-60-100 rule, has got to stop.

Can anyone share some thoughts on this and perhaps provide some links to statements by professional organizations on the subject?

Thanks very much!

Harold



[Editado por Harold Vadney el día jueves, 22 de abril de 2010 13:26]

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Publicado:
jueves, 22 de abril de 2010 17:23
Mensaje #197864-en respuesta a #197855
+1-0
John Bunch
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Expert
5000100100100252525
Lengua materna: Inglés
Mensajes:5379
32
Se inscribió el: viernes, 01 de febrero de 2008
Ubicación: Alemania
 
RE: No Charge for Reps and 100% Matches?!?!?
Hi Jacek, I am with you on that. When I go to a mechanic, I don't demand he use a specific tool. I just want my car fixed. Same thing with translation. I might use a CAT tool for my purposes, but as the Germans say, that is "my beer" (my concern), and not theirs.
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Publicado:
miércoles, 03 de noviembre de 2010 8:12
Mensaje #211167-en respuesta a #45956
Este mensaje fue movido desde otro hilo.
+2-0
Maxi Schwarz-Bastami
Lenguas maternas: Inglés, Alemán
Se inscribió el: viernes, 26 de septiembre de 2003
Ubicación: Canadá
 
RE: Help to understand payment policy Trados - weight / quota

TRADOS is a software company that created a translation memory tool (TM) and marketed it to customers (agencies), telling them that we translators henceforth would have a policy of giving discounts based on matched words.   Of course such a thing is attractive to customers of translators so they in turn began to push for it.  Translators may indeed offer discounts, but that depends on the nature of translation, and not a product vendor's idea.  Unfortunately enough people accept this for some agencies to be able to continue insisting on it.  This 6 year old thread shows that it has been going on for a fair length of time.

If you do a search, you'll find extensive discussions on the pros and cons of CAT tools such as TRADOS, as well as the different choices out there of memory tools.  Look up "memory tools", "CAT tools", TM, "translation memory" and you'll have plenty of reading.

Maxi

 

 



[Editado por Nikita Kobrin el día miércoles, 03 de noviembre de 2010 13:42]

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Publicado:
miércoles, 03 de noviembre de 2010 9:53
Mensaje #211179-en respuesta a #45956
Este mensaje fue movido desde otro hilo.
+2-0
Stanislav Pokorny
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Elite Veteran
5001001002525
Lengua materna: Checo
Mensajes:750
34
Se inscribió el: martes, 23 de agosto de 2005
Ubicación: Checoslovaquia, República de
 
RE: Help to understand payment policy Trados - weight / quota

IMO, a decent CAT (not just Trados) discount scheme is as follows:

0% - 75% matches = 100% of your basic per-word rate
76 - 89% matches = 60% of your basic per-word rate
89% - 100% matches = 30% of your basic per-word rate.



[Editado por Nikita Kobrin el día jueves, 04 de noviembre de 2010 9:42]

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Publicado:
sábado, 06 de noviembre de 2010 8:47
Mensaje #211429-en respuesta a #211179
+0-0
Laurent J Krauland
Photo
Lenguas maternas: Alemán, Francés
Se inscribió el: jueves, 09 de agosto de 2007
Ubicación: Francia
 
RE: Help to understand payment policy Trados - weight / quota

I have simplified the "problem" at my end by giving up Trados altogether.  

This may be throwing the baby with the bath water, but at least it repells the price pushers (many agencies will automatically assume that they are entitled to some form of discount(*) - even for files with a wordcount smaller than 2,000 words and no TM matches... and this is my biggest no-go).

(*) This is also the case when they send you a badly legible, non-editable PDF for which they have allegedly done the wordcount and calculated the repetitions.  Yes, it can go that far...



[Editado por Laurent J Krauland el día sábado, 06 de noviembre de 2010 8:54]

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Publicado:
sábado, 06 de noviembre de 2010 9:00
Mensaje #211430-en respuesta a #211167
+0-0
Laurent J Krauland
Photo
Lenguas maternas: Alemán, Francés
Se inscribió el: jueves, 09 de agosto de 2007
Ubicación: Francia
 
RE: Help to understand payment policy Trados - weight / quota

Originally written by Maxi Schwarz-Bastami on November 3, 2010 1:12 PM

TRADOS is a software company that created a translation memory tool (TM) and marketed it to customers (agencies), telling them that we translators henceforth would have a policy of giving discounts based on matched words.   Of course such a thing is attractive to customers of translators so they in turn began to push for it.  Translators may indeed offer discounts, but that depends on the nature of translation, and not a product vendor's idea.  Unfortunately enough people accept this for some agencies to be able to continue insisting on it.  This 6 year old thread shows that it has been going on for a fair length of time.

If you do a search, you'll find extensive discussions on the pros and cons of CAT tools such as TRADOS, as well as the different choices out there of memory tools.  Look up "memory tools", "CAT tools", TM, "translation memory" and you'll have plenty of reading.

Maxi

 

SDL Trados also sold their software directly to translators, with the idea we should be able to "leverage" our previous translations by charging the same amount for less work (namely by using matches)...


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Publicado:
sábado, 06 de noviembre de 2010 13:32
Mensaje #211436-en respuesta a #211430
+0-0
Maxi Schwarz-Bastami
Lenguas maternas: Inglés, Alemán
Se inscribió el: viernes, 26 de septiembre de 2003
Ubicación: Canadá
 
RE: Help to understand payment policy Trados - weight / quota

Originally written by Laurent J Krauland on November 6, 2010 9:00 AM

SDL Trados also sold their software directly to translators, with the idea we should be able to "leverage" our previous translations by charging the same amount for less work (namely by using matches)...

Thanks for the reminder.  I remember SDL chiefly for the fact that is was the second of two companies for whom I agreed to do a test.  I passed the test with congratulations, and then never heard from them again.    It's not relevant, but maybe indirectly it is.

Maxi


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